Re: Dumping Intel 43201 microcode ROM
On Thu, Jul 23, 2015 at 7:25 PM, Andrew Jones wrote: > The photos of your home-made QUIP socket were really cool. I haven't made any QUIP sockets yet, though I plan to do so. The photos are of a footprint adapter which has an actual 3M 3534 QUIP socket plugged into machined-pin socket strips. > I reached out today because I've been wanting to hack on a 432 emulator for > some years, ever since I found some contemporary textbooks about the > architecture. While I consider the Architecture Reference Manuals to be quite good, they do still leave uncertainty about some details that will be necessary to make an accurate emulator. I hope to use the FPGA-based setup to analyze how the release 1.0 components actually handle those details. One tricky thing about doing an emulator, if you wanted to actually take advantage of a multicore/SMP system to simulate multiple 432 processors (either GDP or IP) is that the memory system is expected to provide atomicity of all reads and writes, of sizes of 1, 2, 4, 6, 8, or 10 bytes, with no alignment restrictions. This isn't just for interlocked RMW accesses; when one processor is doing a write, a second processor reading the same addresses or an overlapping address range is never allowed to see the first processor's write in a partially completed state. As far as I can tell, on the x86 there is no simple way to guarantee that kind of memory access semantics for a 10-byte access. CMPXCHG16B can do it for an unaligned 8-byte access, but the memory operand of the CMPXCHG16B instruction has to be 16-byte aligned, which doesn't allow it to cover all possible alignments of 10-byte data. Intel's Transactional Memory eXtension, which only works correctly on very recent processors, could be used to solve the problem. > Unfortunately, object code in good condition is very hard to > find. I haven't found any that is actually usable or even in a format conducive to analysis. That's why I'm working on my own image builder, including assembler functionality. It takes an XML description of a 432 image and compiles it into a binary image. If I ever get that actually working, then I'll think about a compiler for a normal programming language of some sort (or a subset thereof), producing the XML file for the image builder as an intermediate step. > I was wondering if I could have a copy of your microcode dump. Email sent. > being microcode, it is not object code in the most meaningful sense of the > word, but it's a lot more than I've been able to locate so far. As is typical with microcode, it's far more difficult to understand than a normal machine language. The only published details are from a patent filed more than two years prior to the iAPX 432 public release, and there were some non-trivial architectural and microarchitectural changes in that interval, such that the microinstruction descriptions in the patent don't completely match those of the release 1.0 components. Still, without the patent, trying to understand the microcode would be a near hopeless task. The published papers on the design of the 43201 variously claim that it has 3.5K, 3.75K or 4K words (by 16 bits) of microcode ROM. The release 1.0 43201 actually has 4K, so the 3.5K and 3.75K numbers were probably referring to the amount actually used in prerelease chips, rather than the physical layout (maximum words possible). The entry point at address 0x000 is used for initialization when INIT/ signal is deasserted. The first nine instructions starting there are NOPs. It is unclear whether there is any hardware reason that there need to be multiple NOPs there; due to pipelining[*] I could perhaps imagine a need for two, but not nine. It may be that there were nine words of ROM left over, and they decided to put them at the lowest address rather than the highest. In general the microcode is NOT the top-level control of the GDP. Rather, microcode routines get invoked by the hardware for specific tasks, such as some but not all of the macroinstructions, fault handling, and aspects of memory management. The ROM entry point addresses are in PLAs. I don't think there's any way to dump the PLAs other than decapping the chip, but since it is vertical microcode using a PC that normally increments, it's easy to find the targets of microbranches and subroutine calls, and also addresses that cannot be reached without a hardware-provided address. Eric * There is a delay slot after change of control flow microinstructions, as it common for both microcode and some RISC code.
Mysterious S100 SRAM card
Can someone identify this S100 SRAM card? I can tell that it's a 16K SRAM board made up of MM2114 chips. Virtual beer to the first person who guesses where I found it. -- David Griffith d...@661.org A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
Re: Mysterious S100 SRAM card
On Fri, 24 Jul 2015, d...@661.org wrote: Can someone identify this S100 SRAM card? I can tell that it's a 16K SRAM board made up of MM2114 chips. Virtual beer to the first person who guesses where I found it. Whoops! How about if I show you the picture? https://www.flickr.com/photos/32548582@N02/19969394361/ -- David Griffith d...@661.org A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
Re: Chromatics on ebay
> Within the last year or so, eBay removed the ability to report a > "non-selling seller". The only way to report a seller for this now (so they > get a "strike" on their account) is to pick up the phone and call eBay. You > have to ask (demand) to speak to someone in "Trust and Safety" and you also > have to be prepared to spend about an hour or so on hold. I do not know which Ebay you are calling, but the one that I call about once a month is much faster. I am never on hold for more than four minutes or so at most. If I am calling about a trust or safety issue, the hold time is generally much less. -- Will
Re: First Computer Store
On Thu, 23 Jul 2015, Murray McCullough wrote: A momentus event happened 40 years ago around this time, July 1975, the world's first computer store opened in West Los Angeles, called Arrow Head Computer Store, tag-lined, 'The Computer Store'. It was opened by Dick Heiser. How time has flown by! Was that the same Richard Heiser who achieved fame in the audio world for developing the technique of TEF (Time/Energy/Frequency) analysis? --
RE: Mysterious S100 SRAM card
> On Fri, 24 Jul 2015, David Griffith wrote: > > > Can someone identify this S100 SRAM card? I can tell that it's a 16K > > SRAM board made up of MM2114 chips. Virtual beer to the first person > > who guesses where I found it. > > Whoops! How about if I show you the picture? > > https://www.flickr.com/photos/32548582@N02/19969394361/ I'm pretty sure these are NorthStar RAM boards. My NorthStar Horizon has two virtually identical boards in it, except the two LEDs at the top edge are rectangular encapsulated ones rather than the conventionally packaged LEDs shown in your photo. -Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com
Re: First Computer Store
> On Jul 23, 2015, at 1:11 PM, Murray McCullough > wrote: > > A momentus event happened 40 years ago around this time, July 1975, > the world's first computer store opened in West Los Angeles, called > Arrow Head Computer Store, tag-lined, 'The Computer Store'. It was > opened by Dick Heiser. How time has flown by! Was that really first? I remember Rainbow Computing, in Northridge. If it was later than that, it certainly was not by much. paul
Re: Chromatics on ebay
On Fri, 24 Jul 2015, William Donzelli wrote: Within the last year or so, eBay removed the ability to report a "non-selling seller". The only way to report a seller for this now (so they get a "strike" on their account) is to pick up the phone and call eBay. You have to ask (demand) to speak to someone in "Trust and Safety" and you also have to be prepared to spend about an hour or so on hold. I do not know which Ebay you are calling, but the one that I call about once a month is much faster. I am never on hold for more than four minutes or so at most. If I am calling about a trust or safety issue, the hold time is generally much less. Sounds like you are doing much better than me. eBay and Paypal use an outsourced call center company called ePerformax out of Cebu City, Philippines. While I can get a first level rep on the phone right away, actually getting them to transfer the call to eBay's actual Trust and Safety group in the US can be an absolute nightmare. Apparently, ePerformax's employees don't want to transfer a caller because it results in them getting a low score for the call. This is also why they'll tell you there are no managers, and if you demand one, you get Bob, Joe, Sue, or Elvis in the cube next door. I last contacted eBay about 3 months ago when I had a seller pull a bait-and-switch when a tool I bid on sold for the opening bid amount. My wait time then was pretty consistent with my prior calls to them over the last 3 to 4 years (about a one hour call). That said, back before eBay outsourced their call center and closed the main ones in California and Utah, reaching an actual employee of eBay had been pretty easy.
Leading NOPs for boot code
Reading Eric's 432 post, I saw a note about leading NOPs at the start of boot code. The 4040 code that 'd seen always did this. While working at Intel, I'd found out why. It seems that the reset in their APnote actually released the reset for the processor before the ROMs. The NOPs were hoped to give the processor time to get the ROMs sync'd. The processor would fetch a couple reset states from the bus before the ROM data would show up. If all worked well, The first address wouldn't get garbled by the reset release in the ROMs and it would do its first real operation as a NOP. This didn't always happen, though. By changing the order of the reset releases, reset was much more reliable. Both would start on the first sync pulse from the 4040. They did need to be closely timed because of the dynamic nature of the ROM address registers. Dwight
RE: diagnosing an Intel Series II MDS monitor failure
The most common failures are the horizontal output transistor, the flyback transformer and the dampening diode. Dwight > Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2015 20:10:21 -0600 > Subject: Re: diagnosing an Intel Series II MDS monitor failure > From: space...@gmail.com > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > > Al wrote: > > does it have a horizontal oscillator? > > some ball monitors require horizonal drive before the hv works > > It doesn't appear to have a horizontal oscillator.
RE: Mysterious S100 SRAM card
With all the switches, it looks like it has bank switching. Dwight > Subject: RE: Mysterious S100 SRAM card > Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2015 06:20:50 -0700 > From: ri...@bensene.com > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > > > On Fri, 24 Jul 2015, David Griffith wrote: > > > > > Can someone identify this S100 SRAM card? I can tell that it's a > 16K > > > SRAM board made up of MM2114 chips. Virtual beer to the first > person > > > who guesses where I found it. > > > > Whoops! How about if I show you the picture? > > > > https://www.flickr.com/photos/32548582@N02/19969394361/ > > I'm pretty sure these are NorthStar RAM boards. My NorthStar Horizon > has two virtually identical boards in it, except the two LEDs at the top > edge are rectangular encapsulated ones rather than the conventionally > packaged LEDs shown in your photo. > > -Rick Bensene > The Old Calculator Museum > http://oldcalculatormuseum.com > > >
Re: First Computer Store
On Thu, 23 Jul 2015, Murray McCullough wrote: > A momentus event happened 40 years ago around this time, July 1975, > the world's first computer store opened in West Los Angeles, called > Arrow Head Computer Store, tag-lined, 'The Computer Store'. It was > opened by Dick Heiser. How time has flown by! What did they sell in 1975? I remember reading articles in "73 Magazine" circa 1976 about the interesting things that could be done with an 8008, some 2102s, and 500 linear feet of wirewrap but I was doing broadcast elctronics maintenance for a living and far more inclined to race bicycles than dabble in electronics in my spare time. Five years later I working in computing instead of broadcasting and everthing started to change. -- Richard Loken VE6BSV, Unix System Administrator : "Anybody can be a father Athabasca University: but you have to earn Athabasca, Alberta Canada : the title of 'daddy'" ** richar...@admin.athabascau.ca ** : - Lynn Johnston
Re: Chromatics on ebay
> Sounds like you are doing much better than me. Power Seller Master Race. -- Will
Re: First Computer Store
Oh I don't know...I think these had some interest in 1975 http://vintagecomputer.net/altair-poptronics.cfm Also take a look at the run of Byte mags published in 1975, plus People's Computer Company Newsletters from 1975. On Fri, Jul 24, 2015 at 11:18 AM, Richard Loken wrote: > On Thu, 23 Jul 2015, Murray McCullough wrote: > >> A momentus event happened 40 years ago around this time, July 1975, >> the world's first computer store opened in West Los Angeles, called >> Arrow Head Computer Store, tag-lined, 'The Computer Store'. It was >> opened by Dick Heiser. How time has flown by! > > What did they sell in 1975? > > I remember reading articles in "73 Magazine" circa 1976 about the > interesting things that could be done with an 8008, some 2102s, and 500 > linear feet of wirewrap but I was doing broadcast elctronics maintenance for > a living and far more inclined to race bicycles than dabble in electronics > in my spare time. Five years later I working in computing instead of > broadcasting and everthing started to change. > > -- >Richard Loken VE6BSV, Unix System Administrator : "Anybody can be a father >Athabasca University: but you have to earn >Athabasca, Alberta Canada : the title of 'daddy'" >** richar...@admin.athabascau.ca ** : - Lynn Johnston > -- Bill vintagecomputer.net
Re: First Computer Store
tor 2015-07-23 klockan 13:11 -0400 skrev Murray McCullough: > A momentus event happened 40 years ago around this time, July 1975, > the world's first computer store opened in West Los Angeles, called > Arrow Head Computer Store, tag-lined, 'The Computer Store'. It was > opened by Dick Heiser. How time has flown by! > > Murray :) Doesn't IBM's showroom in New York City counts ? I think it was possible to walk in there and strike a deal for an 360 ! The salesmen force and Thomas Watson was upstairs.
Re: First Computer Store
I have some slides of the IBM Customer Center from 1980, recently scanned and I need to put them online. Yes, you could buy things like system 36/38, Displaywriters, typewriters, printers, etc. Just before the IBM PC. By 1980 the portable 5100 was not present, but I am sure you could buy a 5100 from a customer center in 1975. Good point. I think the original poster was referring to one of the first independent microcomputer stores. There is a huge bias assumption towards "first [micro]computer" whatever, conveniently ignoring the huge volume of mini and mainframes sold at the same time. On Fri, Jul 24, 2015 at 11:29 AM, Stefan Skoglund wrote: > tor 2015-07-23 klockan 13:11 -0400 skrev Murray McCullough: >> A momentus event happened 40 years ago around this time, July 1975, >> the world's first computer store opened in West Los Angeles, called >> Arrow Head Computer Store, tag-lined, 'The Computer Store'. It was >> opened by Dick Heiser. How time has flown by! >> >> Murray :) > > Doesn't IBM's showroom in New York City counts ? > > I think it was possible to walk in there and strike a deal for an 360 ! > > The salesmen force and Thomas Watson was upstairs. > -- Bill vintagecomputer.net
Re: Mysterious S100 SRAM card
I had 4 of them in my first 8080 computer. I believe they are SSM (Solid State Music brand) On 7/24/2015 2:16 AM, d...@661.org wrote: > On Fri, 24 Jul 2015, d...@661.org wrote: > >> Can someone identify this S100 SRAM card? I can tell that it's a 16K >> SRAM board made up of MM2114 chips. Virtual beer to the first person >> who guesses where I found it. > > Whoops! How about if I show you the picture? > > https://www.flickr.com/photos/32548582@N02/19969394361/ > > -- The contents of this e-mail and any attachments are intended solely for the use of the named addressee(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. Any unauthorized use, copying, disclosure, or distribution of the contents of this e-mail is strictly prohibited by the sender and may be unlawful. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and delete this e-mail.
Re: Mysterious S100 SRAM card
On 7/24/2015 2:16 AM, d...@661.org wrote: On Fri, 24 Jul 2015, d...@661.org wrote: Can someone identify this S100 SRAM card? I can tell that it's a 16K SRAM board made up of MM2114 chips. Virtual beer to the first person who guesses where I found it. Whoops! How about if I show you the picture? https://www.flickr.com/photos/32548582@N02/19969394361/ It looks very close to a California Computer Systems board, possibly a different rev. http://www.s100computers.com/Hardware%20Folder/CCS/16K%20RAM/16K%20RAM.htm Bob -- Vintage computers and electronics www.dvq.com www.tekmuseum.com www.decmuseum.org
IBM RT memory boards
I've got 4 4Mx32 memory boards here from an old RT (AFAIR) in case anybody has a use for them. Each board has 8 512Kx40 (32 bits + 8 ECC) modules (20 pcs. 4x256). Edge connector is DS 42+49 m
Re: First Computer Store
be interesting to see a list of the first 10 shops? is there any chronology out there? Ed# .smecc.org In a message dated 7/24/2015 8:38:23 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, billdeg...@gmail.com writes: I have some slides of the IBM Customer Center from 1980, recently scanned and I need to put them online. Yes, you could buy things like system 36/38, Displaywriters, typewriters, printers, etc. Just before the IBM PC. By 1980 the portable 5100 was not present, but I am sure you could buy a 5100 from a customer center in 1975. Good point. I think the original poster was referring to one of the first independent microcomputer stores. There is a huge bias assumption towards "first [micro]computer" whatever, conveniently ignoring the huge volume of mini and mainframes sold at the same time. On Fri, Jul 24, 2015 at 11:29 AM, Stefan Skoglund wrote: > tor 2015-07-23 klockan 13:11 -0400 skrev Murray McCullough: >> A momentus event happened 40 years ago around this time, July 1975, >> the world's first computer store opened in West Los Angeles, called >> Arrow Head Computer Store, tag-lined, 'The Computer Store'. It was >> opened by Dick Heiser. How time has flown by! >> >> Murray :) > > Doesn't IBM's showroom in New York City counts ? > > I think it was possible to walk in there and strike a deal for an 360 ! > > The salesmen force and Thomas Watson was upstairs. > -- Bill vintagecomputer.net
Re: First Computer Store
On 07/24/2015 08:24 AM, william degnan wrote: Oh I don't know...I think these had some interest in 1975 http://vintagecomputer.net/altair-poptronics.cfm I remember Paul Terrell opining the Byte Shop in late 1975. You could buy the MITS stuff as well as the Apple. Things were moving pretty quickly back then. I believe mention was made in an early MITS newsletter. --Chuck
To give away: Commodore reference manuals
5 reference manuals to give away: - 64 Sound and Graphics - Machine Language for the Commodore 64, 128, and Other Commodore Computers - Commodore 128 Reference Guide for Programmers - Commodore 128 Assembly Language Programming - Mapping the Commodore 128 They're in good shape! Pic here: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/15435633/commodore_reference_manuals.jpg I'm willing to mail them within Canada or the US. I'd love to see these go to someone who'll appreciate them. Remove the Commodore computer names and email me at neilVIC20harvey at gmailC64.com
Re: Mysterious S100 SRAM card
On 2015-Jul-24, at 9:02 AM, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > On 7/24/2015 2:16 AM, d...@661.org wrote: >> On Fri, 24 Jul 2015, d...@661.org wrote: >> >>> Can someone identify this S100 SRAM card? I can tell that it's a 16K SRAM >>> board made up of MM2114 chips. Virtual beer to the first person who guesses >>> where I found it. >> >> Whoops! How about if I show you the picture? >> >> https://www.flickr.com/photos/32548582@N02/19969394361/ >> >> > It looks very close to a California Computer Systems board, possibly a > different rev. > > http://www.s100computers.com/Hardware%20Folder/CCS/16K%20RAM/16K%20RAM.htm It's closer to the JTM 16K Static RAM, which must somehow have been related to CCS. http://maben.homeip.net/static/S100/JTM/ Note that while the OP's board has two LEDs, and the board in the maben JTM photo shows only one LED, the pads for a second LED are present on the maben board. I have one too and went through this awhile ago - unidentified board, looking for manual, found the CCS info and then the JTM info.
Re: Mysterious S100 SRAM card
On Fri, 24 Jul 2015, Brent Hilpert wrote: On 2015-Jul-24, at 9:02 AM, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: On 7/24/2015 2:16 AM, d...@661.org wrote: On Fri, 24 Jul 2015, d...@661.org wrote: Can someone identify this S100 SRAM card? I can tell that it's a 16K SRAM board made up of MM2114 chips. Virtual beer to the first person who guesses where I found it. Whoops! How about if I show you the picture? https://www.flickr.com/photos/32548582@N02/19969394361/ It looks very close to a California Computer Systems board, possibly a different rev. http://www.s100computers.com/Hardware%20Folder/CCS/16K%20RAM/16K%20RAM.htm It's closer to the JTM 16K Static RAM, which must somehow have been related to CCS. http://maben.homeip.net/static/S100/JTM/ If you take a look at the manual for the CCS board on the s100computers.com site, you'll find a Revision B diagram that appears to be an exact match (page 39): http://www.s100computers.com/Hardware%20Manuals/CCS/California%20Computer%20Systems%202016B%20RAM%20Manual.pdf Mike Loewen mloe...@cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/
Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 13, Issue 24
> > > Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2015 15:27:04 -0600 > From: Eric Smith > Subject: Re: PDP 11 gear finally moved > > There's no artifact safety issue for the PDP-1 power supplies. They > use a ferroresonant transformer, rectifiers, and filter capacitors. > If any of those fail, the machine won't work properly, but it won't be > damaged. > The AC capacitor attached to the ferroresonant transformer can have a spectacular failure mode where it hisses, sparks, and sprays (probably PCB laden) oil on everything. As you said, all that will happen is the output voltage goes low and it probably blows a fuse. -- Michael Thompson
Re: Mysterious S100 SRAM card
On 2015-Jul-24, at 10:25 AM, Mike Loewen wrote: > On Fri, 24 Jul 2015, Brent Hilpert wrote: > >> On 2015-Jul-24, at 9:02 AM, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: >>> On 7/24/2015 2:16 AM, d...@661.org wrote: On Fri, 24 Jul 2015, d...@661.org wrote: > Can someone identify this S100 SRAM card? I can tell that it's a 16K SRAM > board made up of MM2114 chips. Virtual beer to the first person who > guesses where I found it. Whoops! How about if I show you the picture? https://www.flickr.com/photos/32548582@N02/19969394361/ >>> It looks very close to a California Computer Systems board, possibly a >>> different rev. >>> >>> http://www.s100computers.com/Hardware%20Folder/CCS/16K%20RAM/16K%20RAM.htm >> >> >> It's closer to the JTM 16K Static RAM, which must somehow have been related >> to CCS. >> >> http://maben.homeip.net/static/S100/JTM/ > > If you take a look at the manual for the CCS board on the s100computers.com > site, you'll find a Revision B diagram that appears to be an exact match > (page 39): > > http://www.s100computers.com/Hardware%20Manuals/CCS/California%20Computer%20Systems%202016B%20RAM%20Manual.pdf Right, looks like the mismatch is actually between the photo on the S100computers site and the manual on the same site, that is, the manual matches the OP's board but the photo is a different rev.
Re: First Computer Store
On Fri, 24 Jul 2015, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I remember Paul Terrell opining the Byte Shop in late 1975. You could > buy the MITS stuff as well as the Apple. Things were moving pretty > quickly back then. I believe mention was made in an early MITS newsletter. Ah that was my question. I did not pay attention to computers at all until 1980 and it another five or more years before I had any interest something that could be lifted by one man. My interest is still largely confined to big iron. I am sort of curious about whether a computer store in 1975 sold only parts and kits or whether assemble self supporting packages were starting to appear. Was this still the era of the front panel and the S100 bus or had they move onto stuff like the Kaypro and the Apple ][? Circa 1988 I bought a TRS80 Model II with an external drive cabinet and an immense Tandy printer for $100.00. As far as I recall, the prof who sold it to me had paid about $10,000.00 for it around 1978. It was still pretty hard to lift without help. -- Richard Loken VE6BSV, Unix System Administrator : "Anybody can be a father Athabasca University: but you have to earn Athabasca, Alberta Canada : the title of 'daddy'" ** richar...@admin.athabascau.ca ** : - Lynn Johnston
Re: First Computer Store
On 2015-Jul-24, at 8:24 AM, william degnan wrote: > Oh I don't know...I think these had some interest in 1975 > http://vintagecomputer.net/altair-poptronics.cfm > > Also take a look at the run of Byte mags published in 1975, plus > People's Computer Company Newsletters from 1975. We had a Byte Shop here in backwater Vancouver fairly early, as I recall. I think my dad's friend with an IMSAI was getting S100 stuff from them, which would have been 1976 or 77. A "Computer World" and "computer land" showed up within a few years at latest - I have receipts for Apple II stuff from all three dated 1981.
Re: First Computer Store
On 07/24/2015 11:00 AM, Richard Loken wrote: I am sort of curious about whether a computer store in 1975 sold only parts and kits or whether assemble self supporting packages were starting to appear. Was this still the era of the front panel and the S100 bus or had they move onto stuff like the Kaypro and the Apple ][? I vaguely remember (it's been 40 years) that there was a complete MITS system for demonstration and that you could order and purchase board and system kits. I wasn't terribly interested in Apple, so don't remember much of them. In early 1976, their offerings were pretty thin, but they attracted a lot of interest. I do recall that other outfits such as Jade Computer Products had retail stores--there was one on El Camino in Sunnyvale, for example. Around 1982-83, I recall visiting them trying to decide between a Compupro/Godbout S100 8086 or 85/88 setup and the then very new NEC APC. (I ended up going to San Jose and buying a IBM PC, which I thought was ridiculously overpriced). I decided against the really awesome APC due to lack of technical documentation--for $100, I could get complete circuit diagrams and BIOS listings for the IBM PC. My friend who ran a bicycle parts operation, settled on a Morrow MD3, which came with software and printer for much less than the PC. All in all, it's remarkable to reflect back on the number of B&M retail stores that were set up to sell computer gear in the early 1980s. TI had computer stores which also sold calculators (I recall one in the Stanford Shopping Center), Sears sold PCs as well as others from their computer stores; CDC had a retail operation; Xerox did also. Then there were the general-purpose business retail operations such as Moore and Inmac. Of course, Radio Shack sold their own brands also. And that's not counting software sales outfits, such as Egghead. Compared to what's around now, it feels a lot less crowded. But the same is true for electronic surplus places, such as Halted, Haltek, ACE, Weird Stuff --Chuck
Re: First Computer Store
A momentus event happened 40 years ago around this time, July 1975, the world's first computer store opened in West Los Angeles, called Arrow Head Computer Store, tag-lined, 'The Computer Store'. It was opened by Dick Heiser. How time has flown by! On Fri, 24 Jul 2015, Richard Loken wrote: What did they sell in 1975? I remember reading articles in "73 Magazine" circa 1976 about the interesting things that could be done with an 8008, some 2102s, and 500 linear feet of wirewrap but I was doing broadcast elctronics maintenance for a living and far more inclined to race bicycles than dabble in electronics in my spare time. Five years later I working in computing instead of broadcasting and everthing started to change. Stan Veit, claiming to have run the SECOND computer store (in New York city), backs up the statement that Heiser started the first one. In 1976, Veit sold IIMSAIs, and Sphere. This was largely due to him being unwilling to become a franchise of "The Computer Store" out of Boston, who had an exclusive on Altairs for the the northeast. He doesn't say when "The Computer Store" opened their first actual retail store, but he was well established when they opened one in New York.
Re: Chromatics on ebay
tor 2015-07-23 klockan 18:08 -0400 skrev william degnan: > I told him start with buy it now for $2000 with best offer, leave it > to see what kind of watchers and interest he gets then lower the price > until a sale is made. That said, because you're asking for the item > to be shipped, the seller can refuse on that ground, you have a > Mexican standoff. I believe it's ok to say Mexican standoff because > that's a historic not racial reference, having to do with 19th century > Mexican history. Running a dutch auction ? Start with a very high prize and then lower it in increments. The first bidder who accepts the current valuation gets it.
Re: Chromatics on ebay
On Fri, 24 Jul 2015, William Donzelli wrote: Sounds like you are doing much better than me. Power Seller Master Race. Pfft...Nintendo forever! ;P Just a former Power Seller here...and all I got was this lousy mug and certificate.
Re: First Computer Store
A momentus event happened 40 years ago around this time, July 1975, the world's first computer store opened in West Los Angeles, called Arrow Head Computer Store, tag-lined, 'The Computer Store'. It was opened by Dick Heiser. How time has flown by! On Fri, 24 Jul 2015, Stefan Skoglund wrote: Doesn't IBM's showroom in New York City counts ? I think it was possible to walk in there and strike a deal for an 360 ! The salesmen force and Thomas Watson was upstairs. Yes, as usual, all such claims are meaningless without term definitions. What Murray was referring to was arguably the first PERSONAL computer store, and run as a retail storefront. IBM did do some retail sales, although they might not have called it "retail", out of their building. Even "first" and "store" could use some restrictive definition: Do sales out of a living room count? garage? corner of another kind of store? (there already seems to be an exclusion of mail-order) If a grocery store clears space in an aisle does that count? Did Ed Roberts have a front counter, and handle walk-in? Assembled working systems? or do kits count? Signing lease? Acquiring retail inventory? Opening of doors to the public? First retail sale? First Order? or First Delivery?
Re: First Computer Store
right on! In a message dated 7/24/2015 12:32:14 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, ci...@xenosoft.com writes: Yes, as usual, all such claims are meaningless without term definitions. What Murray was referring to was arguably the first PERSONAL computer store, and run as a retail storefront. IBM did do some retail sales, although they might not have called it "retail", out of their building. Even "first" and "store" could use some restrictive definition: Do sales out of a living room count? garage? corner of another kind of store? (there already seems to be an exclusion of mail-order) If a grocery store clears space in an aisle does that count? Did Ed Roberts have a front counter, and handle walk-in? Assembled working systems? or do kits count? Signing lease? Acquiring retail inventory? Opening of doors to the public? First retail sale? First Order? or First Delivery?
Re: First Computer Store
A momentus event happened 40 years ago around this time, July 1975, the world's first computer store opened in West Los Angeles, called Arrow Head Computer Store, tag-lined, 'The Computer Store'. It was opened by Dick Heiser. How time has flown by! On Fri, 24 Jul 2015, Paul Koning wrote: Was that really first? I remember Rainbow Computing, in Northridge. If it was later than that, it certainly was not by much. There are many "photo-finish" and "photo-start" events in this industry. Many, if not most, "first"s in computers had overlapping development times. I remember a few times where the setup staffs at Comdex were frantically trying to get their booths together in order to be the first one to boot up their machine, in order to claim to have introduced it before somebody else. In the end, it is only the big money people whose claims get listened to - Adam Osborne with $100K? of chrome and black plexiglass, or a 10x10 booth across the aisle made out of flush doors and file cabinets? Is "FIRST" based on design? prototypes? prototypes being misrepresented as production machines? first public demo? first trade show? first sale?preorder? first shipped? first delivered? Such differentiations obviously are petty, but have always played a part in almost every "FIRST" claim.
Re: Chromatics on ebay
Back on TAS for just shy of a grand with free shipping. On Fri, Jul 24, 2015 at 2:27 PM, Tothwolf wrote: > On Fri, 24 Jul 2015, William Donzelli wrote: > > Sounds like you are doing much better than me. >>> >> >> Power Seller Master Race. >> > > Pfft...Nintendo forever! ;P > > Just a former Power Seller here...and all I got was this lousy mug and > certificate. >
Re: First Computer Store
On Fri, 24 Jul 2015, Richard Loken wrote:
Ah that was my question. I did not pay attention to computers at all until
1980 and it another five or more years before I had any interest something
that could be lifted by one man.
My interest is still largely confined to big iron.
I am sort of curious about whether a computer store in 1975 sold only parts
and kits or whether assemble self supporting packages were starting to
appear. Was this still the era of the front panel and the S100 bus or had
they move onto stuff like the Kaypro and the Apple ][?
Circa 1988 I bought a TRS80 Model II with an external drive cabinet and an
immense Tandy printer for $100.00. As far as I recall, the prof who sold it
to me had paid about $10,000.00 for it around 1978. It was still pretty
hard to lift without help.
Ah, we all have different times that we heard about microcomputers V when
we became interested in them, based on personal criteria that they had to
meet to be what we might want to have.
You mention, "could be lifted by one man", which happens to coincide with
one of my favorite DEFINITIONs of "microcomputer". All of the definitions
have some level of subjectivity - different physical strengths, or
abilities to lose different size things, etc.
You also mention front panel V Kaypro and Apple (with integrated keyboard,
and screen might or might not be integral). For some people, a computer
connected to a terminal didn't get their interest, until that was
built-in.
I went around to the computer stores (we had 3 of them here in 1978),
but what they had was still out of my reach.
My personal decision points were: programmable in a high-level language
and <$500. For me, those were first met by TRS80 ($400 with my own CCTV
monitor; $600 with monitor and cassette)
Murray's personal decision points were apparently first met by
Coleco Adam.
Writers in the computer history genre usually acknowledge
some "pre-history" (usually starting with Altair's appearance
on a magazine cover (how many machines were available for sale
at THAT time?)).
Then, they mention a few other prehistoric machines, that they had
personally seen, but were unable/uninterested in buying, and get to
"The First PRACTICAL Computer", which was, of course, the first one
that they felt finally met their needs.
That used to be Apple/TRS80/PET. But, as we age, newer writers think
of computers as starting with PC, Mac, or AT, with all earlier ones being
consigned to that "unusable" prehistory category ("You can't DO anything
without a hard drive", "Unusable without WYSIWYG", etc.)
Now, obviously, the first "REAL" computer needed to have internet
connectivity.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
Re: First Computer Store
On 07/24/2015 01:18 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: Now, obviously, the first "REAL" computer needed to have internet connectivity. ---and a USB port. :) --Chuck
Re: MicroVax Diagnostic Monitor
On 23/07/2015 03:45, Charles Dickman wrote: > Is it an image available? > MV DIAG CUST TK50 (3 versions): http://www.9track.net/vax/mvdiag.zip MVII DIAG CUST (RX50 & TK50): http://www.9track.net/vax/mv2diag.zip Matt
Re: MicroVax Diagnostic Monitor
Thanks! On Fri, Jul 24, 2015 at 6:40 PM, Matt Burke wrote: > On 23/07/2015 03:45, Charles Dickman wrote: >> Is it an image available? >> > > MV DIAG CUST TK50 (3 versions): > > http://www.9track.net/vax/mvdiag.zip > > > MVII DIAG CUST (RX50 & TK50): > > http://www.9track.net/vax/mv2diag.zip > > > Matt
Re: First Computer Store
On Fri, Jul 24, 2015 at 2:58 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 07/24/2015 01:18 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> Now, obviously, the first "REAL" computer needed to have internet >> connectivity. > ---and a USB port. :) It's not a real computer unless it has a real front panel with switches and blinkenlights. Real computers haven't been commercially sold in ages. A keypad and display scanned by software, e.g., Heath H8, doesn't qualify; an important purpose of the front panel is to examine and modify memory for diagnostic purposes when the computer isn't working properly. The KL10 CPU used in later PDP-10 systems (DECsystem-10 and DECSYSTEM-20) doesn't qualify because the only real front panel is on the PDP-11 front end; there's no front panel to examine and modify main system memory.
Re: First Computer Store
On Fri, Jul 24, 2015 at 04:53:01PM -0600, Eric Smith wrote: > It's not a real computer unless it has a real front panel with > switches and blinkenlights. +1 ! mcl
Re: First Computer Store
On 07/24/2015 04:20 PM, Mark Linimon wrote: On Fri, Jul 24, 2015 at 04:53:01PM -0600, Eric Smith wrote: It's not a real computer unless it has a real front panel with switches and blinkenlights. Ever watch any old reruns of "Wonder Woman". Lots of blinkin' lights; no computer. Or you could watch old "The Outer Limits" episodes where clicking of relays and beeps and boops seems to accompany real computers. Or you could just get a floor-standing vacuum-column tape drive and spin the reels back and forth... --Chuck
Re: First Computer Store
On Fri, 24 Jul 2015, Chuck Guzis wrote: On 07/24/2015 04:20 PM, Mark Linimon wrote: On Fri, Jul 24, 2015 at 04:53:01PM -0600, Eric Smith wrote: > It's not a real computer unless it has a real front panel with > switches and blinkenlights. Ever watch any old reruns of "Wonder Woman". Lots of blinkin' lights; no computer. Or you could watch old "The Outer Limits" episodes where clicking of relays and beeps and boops seems to accompany real computers. Or you could just get a floor-standing vacuum-column tape drive and spin the reels back and forth... That's exactly what the Hollywood prop people do: http://woodysprops.com/item.php?uid=133&page=6 These are from a Burroughs B205 system, and rigged up to spin the reels and blink the lights. Mike Loewen mloe...@cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/
Re: First Computer Store
On 7/24/2015 6:41 PM, Mike Loewen wrote: On Fri, 24 Jul 2015, Chuck Guzis wrote: On 07/24/2015 04:20 PM, Mark Linimon wrote: On Fri, Jul 24, 2015 at 04:53:01PM -0600, Eric Smith wrote: > It's not a real computer unless it has a real front panel with > switches and blinkenlights. Ever watch any old reruns of "Wonder Woman". Lots of blinkin' lights; no computer. Or you could watch old "The Outer Limits" episodes where clicking of relays and beeps and boops seems to accompany real computers. Or you could just get a floor-standing vacuum-column tape drive and spin the reels back and forth... That's exactly what the Hollywood prop people do: http://woodysprops.com/item.php?uid=133&page=6 These are from a Burroughs B205 system, and rigged up to spin the reels and blink the lights. Time Tunnel had a lot of scenes with "computery" looking gizmos, probably including these drives. But more panels with meters, displays and blinking lights. Mike Loewenmloe...@cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technologyhttp://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/
Larry Niven's Altair
An Altair 8800 that once belonged to Larry Niven is up for auction. Larry Niven has long been a member of the Los Angeles Science Fantasy Society (www.lasfs.org). This group has existed since 1934 and was the starting point for many science fiction and fantasy authors. Larry Niven is one of them. This computer was purchased by him, but mainly used by his wife. In time, she got a newer computer and this one was made the club computer. It served in that capacity for many years until it too was replaced and was taken in by another club member who didn't want to see it parted out or thrown away. Fast-forward to 2008. I was contacted by that other club member to liquidate his collection. We went to Larry Niven's house whereupon he autographed this computer on the lid and the rear. I don't know if the drive unit was used by the Nivens with this computer, but it matches and is from the same collection. I also don't know where the client went. I haven't heard from him in years. You can see pictures in high resolution at https://www.flickr.com/photos/32548582@N02/sets/72157653950476154/with/19938469936/ The auction is here (will be live July 25 at 3pm pacific) http://www.ebay.com/itm/231632418798 -- David Griffith d...@661.org A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
Re: First Computer Store
On 07/24/2015 06:41 PM, Mike Loewen wrote: That's exactly what the Hollywood prop people do: http://woodysprops.com/item.php?uid=133&page=6 These are from a Burroughs B205 system, and rigged up to spin the reels and blink the lights. Sometimes a prop is also a real, functioning computer: http://www.starringthecomputer.com/feature.html?f=300 --Chuck
Re: Larry Niven's Altair
Already removed. On Fri, Jul 24, 2015 at 10:14 PM, wrote: > > An Altair 8800 that once belonged to Larry Niven is up for auction. > > Larry Niven has long been a member of the Los Angeles Science Fantasy > Society (www.lasfs.org). This group has existed since 1934 and was the > starting point for many science fiction and fantasy authors. Larry Niven is > one of them. This computer was purchased by him, but mainly used by his > wife. In time, she got a newer computer and this one was made the club > computer. It served in that capacity for many years until it too was > replaced and was taken in by another club member who didn't want to see it > parted out or thrown away. Fast-forward to 2008. I was contacted by that > other club member to liquidate his collection. We went to Larry Niven's > house whereupon he autographed this computer on the lid and the rear. > > I don't know if the drive unit was used by the Nivens with this computer, > but it matches and is from the same collection. > > I also don't know where the client went. I haven't heard from him in > years. > > You can see pictures in high resolution at > https://www.flickr.com/photos/32548582@N02/sets/72157653950476154/with/19938469936/ > > The auction is here (will be live July 25 at 3pm pacific) > http://www.ebay.com/itm/231632418798 > > > -- > David Griffith > d...@661.org > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? >
Re: Larry Niven's Altair
NO... HAS NOT STARTED YET! ED# . In a message dated 7/24/2015 8:32:50 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, ja...@textfiles.com writes: Already removed. On Fri, Jul 24, 2015 at 10:14 PM, wrote: > > An Altair 8800 that once belonged to Larry Niven is up for auction. > > Larry Niven has long been a member of the Los Angeles Science Fantasy > Society (www.lasfs.org). This group has existed since 1934 and was the > starting point for many science fiction and fantasy authors. Larry Niven is > one of them. This computer was purchased by him, but mainly used by his > wife. In time, she got a newer computer and this one was made the club > computer. It served in that capacity for many years until it too was > replaced and was taken in by another club member who didn't want to see it > parted out or thrown away. Fast-forward to 2008. I was contacted by that > other club member to liquidate his collection. We went to Larry Niven's > house whereupon he autographed this computer on the lid and the rear. > > I don't know if the drive unit was used by the Nivens with this computer, > but it matches and is from the same collection. > > I also don't know where the client went. I haven't heard from him in > years. > > You can see pictures in high resolution at > https://www.flickr.com/photos/32548582@N02/sets/72157653950476154/with/19938469936/ > > The auction is here (will be live July 25 at 3pm pacific) > http://www.ebay.com/itm/231632418798 > > > -- > David Griffith > d...@661.org > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? >
Re: Larry Niven's Altair
Larry Niven's Altair?? That sounds an awful lot like Hitler's Canoe, if you know what I mean.. ;-) On Fri, Jul 24, 2015 at 10:32 PM, Jason Scott wrote: > Already removed. > > On Fri, Jul 24, 2015 at 10:14 PM, wrote: > > > > > An Altair 8800 that once belonged to Larry Niven is up for auction. > > > > Larry Niven has long been a member of the Los Angeles Science Fantasy > > Society (www.lasfs.org). This group has existed since 1934 and was the > > starting point for many science fiction and fantasy authors. Larry Niven > is > > one of them. This computer was purchased by him, but mainly used by his > > wife. In time, she got a newer computer and this one was made the club > > computer. It served in that capacity for many years until it too was > > replaced and was taken in by another club member who didn't want to see > it > > parted out or thrown away. Fast-forward to 2008. I was contacted by that > > other club member to liquidate his collection. We went to Larry Niven's > > house whereupon he autographed this computer on the lid and the rear. > > > > I don't know if the drive unit was used by the Nivens with this computer, > > but it matches and is from the same collection. > > > > I also don't know where the client went. I haven't heard from him in > > years. > > > > You can see pictures in high resolution at > > > https://www.flickr.com/photos/32548582@N02/sets/72157653950476154/with/19938469936/ > > > > The auction is here (will be live July 25 at 3pm pacific) > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/231632418798 > > > > > > -- > > David Griffith > > d...@661.org > > > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > > A: Top-posting. > > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? > > >
