date:20200710

I am largely ignorant of the issues faced in world of law enforcement.  
And perhaps this is a broader philosophical question with no clear answers.

A guy, alone at night, in a city, near the location of a reported armed robbery 
is confronted by cops,  takes off running.
He drops what appears to be a gun, picks it up and keeps running, should he be 
shot?

I understand that he may take a hostage or start shooting or whatever.  He may 
turn the gun on the cops.
I remember old cop and robber movies when I was a kid where the cop would yell 
“stop or I’ll shoot”.  

We had the above situation happen here in Utah a while back.  Cops were found 
to have done no wrong.
People are understandably upset.  
A few years ago, a young man playing with a sword was stopped by cops, he took 
off running with the sword and they shot and killed him.
I presume the same justifications apply.  

I wonder how often someone with a weapon does harm after evading the cops.
I wonder how other countries confront the same problem.  
If a human gets scared and runs due to uncontrolled fear, should they be shot?

I was only truly scared once in my life.  Was in a bank robbery.  
I understand that your rational thinking goes out the window a bit when you are 
really scared.   -- 
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[AFMUG] SPAM NTIA: 3.45-3.55 GHz ‘good candidate’ for mid-band sharing | FierceWireless

2020-07-10 Thread Jaime Solorza

https://www.fiercewireless.com/wireless/ntia-3-45-3-55-ghz-good-candidate-for-mid-band-sharing
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Re: [AFMUG] OT Might be political - trigger warning


  
  
I think every situation is different. I also believe the police,
  in general, have been given more slack than they should for quite
  some time. The issue is how to deal with this. I do not envy cops.
  I have a nephew who is a cop, and I worry about him all the time.
One of the more recent cases was an individual who was resisting
  arrest. He grabbed, and fired a taser. As I understand it, most
  tasers are one-and-done. IOW, once the taser has been fired, the
  only "weapon" characteristics it has are as a thrown projectile.
  That individual was running away, and was shot in the back. Was
  that justified? I would have a hard time accepting that as a
  justified homicide. But that is only one example. 

With the proliferation of cameras everywhere, this sort of thing
  is going to come up more and more.


bp



On 7/10/2020 9:32 AM, ch...@wbmfg.com
  wrote:


  
  

  I am largely ignorant of the issues faced in world of law
enforcement.  
  And perhaps this is a broader philosophical question with
no clear answers.
   
  A guy, alone at night, in a city, near the location of a
reported armed robbery is confronted by cops,  takes off
running.
  He drops what appears to be a gun, picks it up and keeps
running, should he be shot?
   
  I understand that he may take a hostage or start shooting
or whatever.  He may turn the gun on the cops.
  I remember old cop and robber movies when I was a kid
where the cop would yell “stop or I’ll shoot”.  
   
  We had the above situation happen here in Utah a while
back.  Cops were found to have done no wrong.
  People are understandably upset.  
  A few years ago, a young man playing with a sword was
stopped by cops, he took off running with the sword and they
shot and killed him.
  I presume the same justifications apply.  
   
  I wonder how often someone with a weapon does harm after
evading the cops.
  I wonder how other countries confront the same problem. 
  
  If a human gets scared and runs due to uncontrolled fear,
should they be shot?
   
  I was only truly scared once in my life.  Was in a bank
robbery.  
  I understand that your rational thinking goes out the
window a bit when you are really scared.   

  
  
  

  


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Re: [AFMUG] OT Might be political - trigger warning

2020-07-10 Thread Carl Peterson

Ten v Garner say you can't shoot them


On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 11:33 AM  wrote:

> I am largely ignorant of the issues faced in world of law enforcement.
> And perhaps this is a broader philosophical question with no clear answers.
>
> A guy, alone at night, in a city, near the location of a reported armed
> robbery is confronted by cops,  takes off running.
> He drops what appears to be a gun, picks it up and keeps running, should
> he be shot?
>
> I understand that he may take a hostage or start shooting or whatever.  He
> may turn the gun on the cops.
> I remember old cop and robber movies when I was a kid where the cop would
> yell “stop or I’ll shoot”.
>
> We had the above situation happen here in Utah a while back.  Cops were
> found to have done no wrong.
> People are understandably upset.
> A few years ago, a young man playing with a sword was stopped by cops, he
> took off running with the sword and they shot and killed him.
> I presume the same justifications apply.
>
> I wonder how often someone with a weapon does harm after evading the cops.
> I wonder how other countries confront the same problem.
> If a human gets scared and runs due to uncontrolled fear, should they be
> shot?
>
> I was only truly scared once in my life.  Was in a bank robbery.
> I understand that your rational thinking goes out the window a bit when
> you are really scared.
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>


-- 

Carl Peterson

*PORT NETWORKS*

401 E Pratt St, Ste 2553

Baltimore, MD 21202

(410) 637-3707
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Re: [AFMUG] OT Might be political - trigger warning

2020-07-10 Thread Carl Peterson

Personal feeling is that unless they present a clear immediate danger to
someone in the immediate vicinity, deadly force is unjustified.

On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 11:48 AM Bill Prince  wrote:

> I think every situation is different. I also believe the police, in
> general, have been given more slack than they should for quite some time.
> The issue is how to deal with this. I do not envy cops. I have a nephew who
> is a cop, and I worry about him all the time.
>
> One of the more recent cases was an individual who was resisting arrest.
> He grabbed, and fired a taser. As I understand it, most tasers are
> one-and-done. IOW, once the taser has been fired, the only "weapon"
> characteristics it has are as a thrown projectile. That individual was
> running away, and was shot in the back. Was that justified? I would have a
> hard time accepting that as a justified homicide. But that is only one
> example.
>
> With the proliferation of cameras everywhere, this sort of thing is going
> to come up more and more.
>
>
> bp
> 
>
>
> On 7/10/2020 9:32 AM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:
>
> I am largely ignorant of the issues faced in world of law enforcement.
> And perhaps this is a broader philosophical question with no clear answers.
>
> A guy, alone at night, in a city, near the location of a reported armed
> robbery is confronted by cops,  takes off running.
> He drops what appears to be a gun, picks it up and keeps running, should
> he be shot?
>
> I understand that he may take a hostage or start shooting or whatever.  He
> may turn the gun on the cops.
> I remember old cop and robber movies when I was a kid where the cop would
> yell “stop or I’ll shoot”.
>
> We had the above situation happen here in Utah a while back.  Cops were
> found to have done no wrong.
> People are understandably upset.
> A few years ago, a young man playing with a sword was stopped by cops, he
> took off running with the sword and they shot and killed him.
> I presume the same justifications apply.
>
> I wonder how often someone with a weapon does harm after evading the cops.
> I wonder how other countries confront the same problem.
> If a human gets scared and runs due to uncontrolled fear, should they be
> shot?
>
> I was only truly scared once in my life.  Was in a bank robbery.
> I understand that your rational thinking goes out the window a bit when
> you are really scared.
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
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Re: [AFMUG] OT Might be political - trigger warning

Except it appears:
“ the officer may not use deadly force to prevent escape unless "the officer 
has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a significant threat of 
death or serious physical injury to the officer or others."[1]”

Do other countries have this problem?



From: Carl Peterson 
Sent: Friday, July 10, 2020 10:49 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Might be political - trigger warning

Ten v Garner say you can't shoot them 


On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 11:33 AM  wrote:

  I am largely ignorant of the issues faced in world of law enforcement.  
  And perhaps this is a broader philosophical question with no clear answers.

  A guy, alone at night, in a city, near the location of a reported armed 
robbery is confronted by cops,  takes off running.
  He drops what appears to be a gun, picks it up and keeps running, should he 
be shot?

  I understand that he may take a hostage or start shooting or whatever.  He 
may turn the gun on the cops.
  I remember old cop and robber movies when I was a kid where the cop would 
yell “stop or I’ll shoot”.  

  We had the above situation happen here in Utah a while back.  Cops were found 
to have done no wrong.
  People are understandably upset.  
  A few years ago, a young man playing with a sword was stopped by cops, he 
took off running with the sword and they shot and killed him.
  I presume the same justifications apply.  

  I wonder how often someone with a weapon does harm after evading the cops.
  I wonder how other countries confront the same problem.  
  If a human gets scared and runs due to uncontrolled fear, should they be shot?

  I was only truly scared once in my life.  Was in a bank robbery.  
  I understand that your rational thinking goes out the window a bit when you 
are really scared.   
  -- 
  AF mailing list
  AF@af.afmug.com
  http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com



-- 

Carl Peterson


PORT NETWORKS

401 E Pratt St, Ste 2553

Baltimore, MD 21202

(410) 637-3707 




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Re: [AFMUG] OT Might be political - trigger warning

2020-07-10 Thread Larry Smith

> Do other countries have this problem?

Having lived in quite  a few other countries during my 
vacation with Uncle Sam, most other countries do not
have anywhere near the issue with people running from
police as we do here in the states.

-- 
Larry Smith
lesm...@ecsis.net

On Fri July 10 2020 11:54, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:
> Except it appears:
> “ the officer may not use deadly force to prevent escape unless "the
> officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a significant
> threat of death or serious physical injury to the officer or others."[1]”
>
> Do other countries have this problem?
>
>
>
> From: Carl Peterson
> Sent: Friday, July 10, 2020 10:49 AM
> To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Might be political - trigger warning
>
> Ten v Garner say you can't shoot them
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 11:33 AM  wrote:
>
>   I am largely ignorant of the issues faced in world of law enforcement.
>   And perhaps this is a broader philosophical question with no clear
> answers.
>
>   A guy, alone at night, in a city, near the location of a reported armed
> robbery is confronted by cops,  takes off running. He drops what appears to
> be a gun, picks it up and keeps running, should he be shot?
>
>   I understand that he may take a hostage or start shooting or whatever. 
> He may turn the gun on the cops. I remember old cop and robber movies when
> I was a kid where the cop would yell “stop or I’ll shoot”.
>
>   We had the above situation happen here in Utah a while back.  Cops were
> found to have done no wrong. People are understandably upset.
>   A few years ago, a young man playing with a sword was stopped by cops, he
> took off running with the sword and they shot and killed him. I presume the
> same justifications apply.
>
>   I wonder how often someone with a weapon does harm after evading the
> cops. I wonder how other countries confront the same problem.
>   If a human gets scared and runs due to uncontrolled fear, should they be
> shot?
>
>   I was only truly scared once in my life.  Was in a bank robbery.
>   I understand that your rational thinking goes out the window a bit when
> you are really scared. --
>   AF mailing list
>   AF@af.afmug.com
>   http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
>
>
> --
>
> Carl Peterson
>
>
> PORT NETWORKS
>
> 401 E Pratt St, Ste 2553
>
> Baltimore, MD 21202
>
> (410) 637-3707
>
>
>
> ---
>-

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Re: [AFMUG] OT Might be political - trigger warning

2020-07-10 Thread Cassidy B. Larson

Is it deadly force to shoot them in the leg so they can’t keep running? Easier 
to recover from a leg wound than a shot to the heart.

> On Jul 10, 2020, at 10:52 AM, Carl Peterson  
> wrote:
> 
> Personal feeling is that unless they present a clear immediate danger to 
> someone in the immediate vicinity, deadly force is unjustified.
> 
> On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 11:48 AM Bill Prince  > wrote:
> I think every situation is different. I also believe the police, in general, 
> have been given more slack than they should for quite some time. The issue is 
> how to deal with this. I do not envy cops. I have a nephew who is a cop, and 
> I worry about him all the time.
> 
> One of the more recent cases was an individual who was resisting arrest. He 
> grabbed, and fired a taser. As I understand it, most tasers are one-and-done. 
> IOW, once the taser has been fired, the only "weapon" characteristics it has 
> are as a thrown projectile. That individual was running away, and was shot in 
> the back. Was that justified? I would have a hard time accepting that as a 
> justified homicide. But that is only one example.
> 
> With the proliferation of cameras everywhere, this sort of thing is going to 
> come up more and more.
> 
> 
> 
> bp
> 
> 
> On 7/10/2020 9:32 AM, ch...@wbmfg.com  wrote:
>> I am largely ignorant of the issues faced in world of law enforcement.
>> And perhaps this is a broader philosophical question with no clear answers.
>> 
>> A guy, alone at night, in a city, near the location of a reported armed 
>> robbery is confronted by cops,  takes off running.
>> He drops what appears to be a gun, picks it up and keeps running, should he 
>> be shot?
>> 
>> I understand that he may take a hostage or start shooting or whatever.  He 
>> may turn the gun on the cops.
>> I remember old cop and robber movies when I was a kid where the cop would 
>> yell “stop or I’ll shoot”.
>> 
>> We had the above situation happen here in Utah a while back.  Cops were 
>> found to have done no wrong.
>> People are understandably upset.
>> A few years ago, a young man playing with a sword was stopped by cops, he 
>> took off running with the sword and they shot and killed him.
>> I presume the same justifications apply.
>> 
>> I wonder how often someone with a weapon does harm after evading the cops.
>> I wonder how other countries confront the same problem.
>> If a human gets scared and runs due to uncontrolled fear, should they be 
>> shot?
>> 
>> I was only truly scared once in my life.  Was in a bank robbery.
>> I understand that your rational thinking goes out the window a bit when you 
>> are really scared.
>> 
>> 
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com 
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com



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Re: [AFMUG] OT Might be political - trigger warning

2020-07-10 Thread Charles Boening

Not necessarily.  Hit someone in right spot and they can bleed out in a very 
short period of time.

Here’s an example.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwOJ4AIa6w4&bpctr=1594402756


__

Charles Boening
Network Manager
800-858-2399 | Office
charl...@calore.net

www.cot.net | Find us on 
Facebook
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Cal-Ore  | Local. Trusted. Professional.

From: AF  On Behalf Of Cassidy B. Larson
Sent: Friday, July 10, 2020 10:04 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Might be political - trigger warning

EXTERNAL EMAIL - Use caution when opening attachments, clicking links, or 
sharing sensitive information.
Is it deadly force to shoot them in the leg so they can’t keep running? Easier 
to recover from a leg wound than a shot to the heart.


On Jul 10, 2020, at 10:52 AM, Carl Peterson 
mailto:cpeter...@portnetworks.com>> wrote:

Personal feeling is that unless they present a clear immediate danger to 
someone in the immediate vicinity, deadly force is unjustified.

On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 11:48 AM Bill Prince 
mailto:part15...@gmail.com>> wrote:
I think every situation is different. I also believe the police, in general, 
have been given more slack than they should for quite some time. The issue is 
how to deal with this. I do not envy cops. I have a nephew who is a cop, and I 
worry about him all the time.
One of the more recent cases was an individual who was resisting arrest. He 
grabbed, and fired a taser. As I understand it, most tasers are one-and-done. 
IOW, once the taser has been fired, the only "weapon" characteristics it has 
are as a thrown projectile. That individual was running away, and was shot in 
the back. Was that justified? I would have a hard time accepting that as a 
justified homicide. But that is only one example.
With the proliferation of cameras everywhere, this sort of thing is going to 
come up more and more.


bp




On 7/10/2020 9:32 AM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:
I am largely ignorant of the issues faced in world of law enforcement.
And perhaps this is a broader philosophical question with no clear answers.

A guy, alone at night, in a city, near the location of a reported armed robbery 
is confronted by cops,  takes off running.
He drops what appears to be a gun, picks it up and keeps running, should he be 
shot?

I understand that he may take a hostage or start shooting or whatever.  He may 
turn the gun on the cops.
I remember old cop and robber movies when I was a kid where the cop would yell 
“stop or I’ll shoot”.

We had the above situation happen here in Utah a while back.  Cops were found 
to have done no wrong.
People are understandably upset.
A few years ago, a young man playing with a sword was stopped by cops, he took 
off running with the sword and they shot and killed him.
I presume the same justifications apply.

I wonder how often someone with a weapon does harm after evading the cops.
I wonder how other countries confront the same problem.
If a human gets scared and runs due to uncontrolled fear, should they be shot?

I was only truly scared once in my life.  Was in a bank robbery.
I understand that your rational thinking goes out the window a bit when you are 
really scared.


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Re: [AFMUG] OT Might be political - trigger warning

2020-07-10 Thread James Howard

I would think you would be scared if you were robbing a bank……

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of ch...@wbmfg.com
Sent: Friday, July 10, 2020 11:32 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: [AFMUG] OT Might be political - trigger warning

I am largely ignorant of the issues faced in world of law enforcement.
And perhaps this is a broader philosophical question with no clear answers.

A guy, alone at night, in a city, near the location of a reported armed robbery 
is confronted by cops,  takes off running.
He drops what appears to be a gun, picks it up and keeps running, should he be 
shot?

I understand that he may take a hostage or start shooting or whatever.  He may 
turn the gun on the cops.
I remember old cop and robber movies when I was a kid where the cop would yell 
“stop or I’ll shoot”.

We had the above situation happen here in Utah a while back.  Cops were found 
to have done no wrong.
People are understandably upset.
A few years ago, a young man playing with a sword was stopped by cops, he took 
off running with the sword and they shot and killed him.
I presume the same justifications apply.

I wonder how often someone with a weapon does harm after evading the cops.
I wonder how other countries confront the same problem.
If a human gets scared and runs due to uncontrolled fear, should they be shot?

I was only truly scared once in my life.  Was in a bank robbery.
I understand that your rational thinking goes out the window a bit when you are 
really scared.

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To: 
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From: af-boun...@af.afmug.com

You received this message because the domain afmug.com is on your allow list.

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Re: [AFMUG] OT Might be political - trigger warning

2020-07-10 Thread Mike Hammett

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bL5RzI5LyVc 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: ch...@wbmfg.com 
To: af@af.afmug.com 
Sent: Friday, July 10, 2020 11:32:21 AM 
Subject: [AFMUG] OT Might be political - trigger warning 




I am largely ignorant of the issues faced in world of law enforcement. 
And perhaps this is a broader philosophical question with no clear answers. 

A guy, alone at night, in a city, near the location of a reported armed robbery 
is confronted by cops, takes off running. 
He drops what appears to be a gun, picks it up and keeps running, should he be 
shot? 

I understand that he may take a hostage or start shooting or whatever. He may 
turn the gun on the cops. 
I remember old cop and robber movies when I was a kid where the cop would yell 
“stop or I’ll shoot”. 

We had the above situation happen here in Utah a while back. Cops were found to 
have done no wrong. 
People are understandably upset. 
A few years ago, a young man playing with a sword was stopped by cops, he took 
off running with the sword and they shot and killed him. 
I presume the same justifications apply. 

I wonder how often someone with a weapon does harm after evading the cops. 
I wonder how other countries confront the same problem. 
If a human gets scared and runs due to uncontrolled fear, should they be shot? 

I was only truly scared once in my life. Was in a bank robbery. 
I understand that your rational thinking goes out the window a bit when you are 
really scared. 
-- 
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http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com 

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Re: [AFMUG] OT Might be political - trigger warning

2020-07-10 Thread Ken Hohhof

The same question comes up with high speed police chases, which too often end 
up with innocent bystanders hurt or even killed.  There was one about a month 
ago in Chicago, totally innocent mother was killed by police car in pursuit.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/opinion/editorials/ct-editorial-lori-lightfoot-police-chase-deaths-20200609-ueeunuyhgbgq3gfh3wn23xpz2q-story.html

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of James Howard
Sent: Friday, July 10, 2020 12:14 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Might be political - trigger warning

 

I would think you would be scared if you were robbing a bank……

 

 

 

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of ch...@wbmfg.com 
 
Sent: Friday, July 10, 2020 11:32 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com  
Subject: [AFMUG] OT Might be political - trigger warning

 

I am largely ignorant of the issues faced in world of law enforcement.  

And perhaps this is a broader philosophical question with no clear answers.

 

A guy, alone at night, in a city, near the location of a reported armed robbery 
is confronted by cops,  takes off running.

He drops what appears to be a gun, picks it up and keeps running, should he be 
shot?

 

I understand that he may take a hostage or start shooting or whatever.  He may 
turn the gun on the cops.

I remember old cop and robber movies when I was a kid where the cop would yell 
“stop or I’ll shoot”.  

 

We had the above situation happen here in Utah a while back.  Cops were found 
to have done no wrong.

People are understandably upset.  

A few years ago, a young man playing with a sword was stopped by cops, he took 
off running with the sword and they shot and killed him.

I presume the same justifications apply.  

 

I wonder how often someone with a weapon does harm after evading the cops.

I wonder how other countries confront the same problem.  

If a human gets scared and runs due to uncontrolled fear, should they be shot?

 

I was only truly scared once in my life.  Was in a bank robbery.  

I understand that your rational thinking goes out the window a bit when you are 
really scared.   

  _  



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From: af-boun...@af.afmug.com  




You received this message because the domain afmug.com is on your allow list.

 

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Re: [AFMUG] OT Might be political - trigger warning

2020-07-10 Thread Robert Andrews

I believe there is a criteria of "immediate threat"   Not a potential 
threat but clear ( that's hard to define ) and immediate.   Not true 
when someone is running away from you with a sword.


On 07/10/2020 09:32 AM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:

I am largely ignorant of the issues faced in world of law enforcement.
And perhaps this is a broader philosophical question with no clear answers.
A guy, alone at night, in a city, near the location of a reported armed 
robbery is confronted by cops,  takes off running.
He drops what appears to be a gun, picks it up and keeps running, should 
he be shot?
I understand that he may take a hostage or start shooting or whatever.  
He may turn the gun on the cops.
I remember old cop and robber movies when I was a kid where the cop 
would yell “stop or I’ll shoot”.
We had the above situation happen here in Utah a while back.  Cops were 
found to have done no wrong.

People are understandably upset.
A few years ago, a young man playing with a sword was stopped by cops, 
he took off running with the sword and they shot and killed him.

I presume the same justifications apply.
I wonder how often someone with a weapon does harm after evading the cops.
I wonder how other countries confront the same problem.
If a human gets scared and runs due to uncontrolled fear, should they be 
shot?

I was only truly scared once in my life.  Was in a bank robbery.
I understand that your rational thinking goes out the window a bit when 
you are really scared.





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Re: [AFMUG] OT Might be political - trigger warning

2020-07-10 Thread Robert Andrews

Police are extensively trained _not_ to take anything but a deadly shot. 
  The same as when someone trespasses into your home.


On 07/10/2020 10:04 AM, Cassidy B. Larson wrote:
Is it deadly force to shoot them in the leg so they can’t keep running? 
Easier to recover from a leg wound than a shot to the heart.


On Jul 10, 2020, at 10:52 AM, Carl Peterson 
mailto:cpeter...@portnetworks.com>> wrote:


Personal feeling is that unless they present a clear immediate danger 
to someone in the immediate vicinity, deadly force is unjustified.


On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 11:48 AM Bill Prince > wrote:


I think every situation is different. I also believe the police,
in general, have been given more slack than they should for quite
some time. The issue is how to deal with this. I do not envy cops.
I have a nephew who is a cop, and I worry about him all the time.

One of the more recent cases was an individual who was resisting
arrest. He grabbed, and fired a taser. As I understand it, most
tasers are one-and-done. IOW, once the taser has been fired, the
only "weapon" characteristics it has are as a thrown projectile.
That individual was running away, and was shot in the back. Was
that justified? I would have a hard time accepting that as a
justified homicide. But that is only one example.

With the proliferation of cameras everywhere, this sort of thing
is going to come up more and more.


bp


On 7/10/2020 9:32 AM, ch...@wbmfg.com  wrote:

I am largely ignorant of the issues faced in world of law
enforcement.
And perhaps this is a broader philosophical question with no
clear answers.
A guy, alone at night, in a city, near the location of a reported
armed robbery is confronted by cops,  takes off running.
He drops what appears to be a gun, picks it up and keeps running,
should he be shot?
I understand that he may take a hostage or start shooting or
whatever.  He may turn the gun on the cops.
I remember old cop and robber movies when I was a kid where the
cop would yell “stop or I’ll shoot”.
We had the above situation happen here in Utah a while back. 
Cops were found to have done no wrong.

People are understandably upset.
A few years ago, a young man playing with a sword was stopped by
cops, he took off running with the sword and they shot and killed
him.
I presume the same justifications apply.
I wonder how often someone with a weapon does harm after evading
the cops.
I wonder how other countries confront the same problem.
If a human gets scared and runs due to uncontrolled fear, should
they be shot?
I was only truly scared once in my life.  Was in a bank robbery.
I understand that your rational thinking goes out the window a
bit when you are really scared.

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Re: [AFMUG] OT Might be political - trigger warning


  
  
My understanding is that police are trained to shoot for center
  of mass. Cowboy shots to the leg(s) are more likely to miss
  altogether.


bp



On 7/10/2020 10:04 AM, Cassidy B.
  Larson wrote:


  
  Is it deadly force to shoot them in the leg so they can’t keep
  running? Easier to recover from a leg wound than a shot to the
  heart.
  

  On Jul 10, 2020, at 10:52 AM, Carl Peterson 
wrote:
  
  

  Personal feeling is that unless
they present a clear immediate danger to someone in the
immediate vicinity, deadly force is unjustified.  
  
  
On Fri, Jul 10, 2020
  at 11:48 AM Bill Prince 
  wrote:


  
I think every situation is different. I
  also believe the police, in general, have been
  given more slack than they should for quite some
  time. The issue is how to deal with this. I do not
  envy cops. I have a nephew who is a cop, and I
  worry about him all the time.
One of the more recent cases was an
  individual who was resisting arrest. He grabbed,
  and fired a taser. As I understand it, most tasers
  are one-and-done. IOW, once the taser has been
  fired, the only "weapon" characteristics it has
  are as a thrown projectile. That individual was
  running away, and was shot in the back. Was that
  justified? I would have a hard time accepting that
  as a justified homicide. But that is only one
  example. 

With the proliferation of cameras
  everywhere, this sort of thing is going to come up
  more and more.


bp



On 7/10/2020 9:32 AM, ch...@wbmfg.com
  wrote:


  

  I am largely ignorant of the
issues faced in world of law enforcement.  
  And perhaps this is a broader
philosophical question with no clear
answers.
   
  A guy, alone at night, in a
city, near the location of a reported armed
robbery is confronted by cops,  takes off
running.
  He drops what appears to be a
gun, picks it up and keeps running, should
he be shot?
   
  I understand that he may take a
hostage or start shooting or whatever.  He
may turn the gun on the cops.
  I remember old cop and robber
movies when I was a kid where the cop would
yell “stop or I’ll shoot”.  
   
  We had the above situation
happen here in Utah a while back.  Cops were
found to have done no wrong.
  People are understandably
upset.  
  A few years ago, a young man
playing with a sword was stopped by cops, he
took off running with the sword and they
shot and killed him.
  I presume the same
justifications apply.  
   
  I wonder how often someone with
a weapon does harm after evading the cops.
  I wonder how other countries
confront the same problem.  
  If a human gets scared and runs
due to uncontrolled fear, should they be
shot?
   
  I was only truly scared once in
my life.  Was in a bank robbery.  
  I understand that your rational
thinking goes out the window a bit when you
are really scared.

Re: [AFMUG] OT Might be political - trigger warning

Is it a Taser or a gun he just pulled from his pants?  You have a half 
second to decide.


Charles Boening wrote:


In the Atlanta case the suspect took a taser from the other officer.  
A taser that hadn’t been fired.  He turned and shot that taser at the 
office which prompted the office to shoot back.  You can see that in 
the video.


Not saying it was justified or not.  Just the fact that the suspect 
even though fleeing, turned and shot a weapon at the officer.


As for getting shot in the back, that’s easy if the suspect is running 
away and turns their torso a bit then extends their arm towards the 
officer giving chase.  You can still have your back to the officer 
giving chase yet present a threat to that officer.


Note that this picture has the added benefit of daylight and is a 
training scenario so tensions wouldn’t be as high.  Also note that you 
can’t tell what kind of weapon the suspect has.  Is it real or fake?  
Can’t really tell.


__

*Charles Boening*

/Network Manager/

800-858-2399 | Office

charl...@calore.net 

www.cot.net  | Find us on Facebook 



__

*Cal-Ore* | /Local. Trusted. Professional./

*From:* AF  *On Behalf Of * Bill Prince
*Sent:* Friday, July 10, 2020 9:48 AM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Might be political - trigger warning

EXTERNAL EMAIL - Use caution when opening attachments, clicking links, 
or sharing sensitive information.


I think every situation is different. I also believe the police, in 
general, have been given more slack than they should for quite some 
time. The issue is how to deal with this. I do not envy cops. I have a 
nephew who is a cop, and I worry about him all the time.


One of the more recent cases was an individual who was resisting 
arrest. He grabbed, and fired a taser. As I understand it, most tasers 
are one-and-done. IOW, once the taser has been fired, the only 
"weapon" characteristics it has are as a thrown projectile. That 
individual was running away, and was shot in the back. Was that 
justified? I would have a hard time accepting that as a justified 
homicide. But that is only one example.


With the proliferation of cameras everywhere, this sort of thing is 
going to come up more and more.


bp


On 7/10/2020 9:32 AM, ch...@wbmfg.com  wrote:

I am largely ignorant of the issues faced in world of law
enforcement.

And perhaps this is a broader philosophical question with no clear
answers.

A guy, alone at night, in a city, near the location of a reported
armed robbery is confronted by cops, takes off running.

He drops what appears to be a gun, picks it up and keeps running,
should he be shot?

I understand that he may take a hostage or start shooting or
whatever.  He may turn the gun on the cops.

I remember old cop and robber movies when I was a kid where the
cop would yell “stop or I’ll shoot”.

We had the above situation happen here in Utah a while back. Cops
were found to have done no wrong.

People are understandably upset.

A few years ago, a young man playing with a sword was stopped by
cops, he took off running with the sword and they shot and killed him.

I presume the same justifications apply.

I wonder how often someone with a weapon does harm after evading
the cops.

I wonder how other countries confront the same problem.

If a human gets scared and runs due to uncontrolled fear, should
they be shot?

I was only truly scared once in my life.  Was in a bank robbery.

I understand that your rational thinking goes out the window a bit
when you are really scared.







--
*Jay Weekley*
*Cyber Broadband
*

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Re: [AFMUG] OT Might be political - trigger warning


Will's muzzle discipline is concerning.


Charles Boening wrote:


LOL. Love that movie!

__

*Charles Boening*

/Network Manager/

800-858-2399 | Office

charl...@calore.net 

www.cot.net  | Find us on Facebook 



__

*Cal-Ore* | /Local. Trusted. Professional./

*From:* AF  *On Behalf Of * Ken Hohhof
*Sent:* Friday, July 10, 2020 10:49 AM
*To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Might be political - trigger warning

EXTERNAL EMAIL - Use caution when opening attachments, clicking links, 
or sharing sensitive information.


Maybe this should be a police training video:

https://youtu.be/K3hAVT2sDqQ

*From:* AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> 
*On Behalf Of *Charles Boening

*Sent:* Friday, July 10, 2020 12:22 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group >

*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Might be political - trigger warning

In the Atlanta case the suspect took a taser from the other officer.  
A taser that hadn’t been fired.  He turned and shot that taser at the 
office which prompted the office to shoot back.  You can see that in 
the video.


Not saying it was justified or not.  Just the fact that the suspect 
even though fleeing, turned and shot a weapon at the officer.


As for getting shot in the back, that’s easy if the suspect is running 
away and turns their torso a bit then extends their arm towards the 
officer giving chase. You can still have your back to the officer 
giving chase yet present a threat to that officer.


Note that this picture has the added benefit of daylight and is a 
training scenario so tensions wouldn’t be as high.  Also note that you 
can’t tell what kind of weapon the suspect has.  Is it real or fake?  
Can’t really tell.


__

*Charles Boening*

/Network Manager/

800-858-2399 | Office

charl...@calore.net 

www.cot.net  | Find us on Facebook 



__

*Cal-Ore* | /Local. Trusted. Professional./

*From:* AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> 
*On Behalf Of *Bill Prince

*Sent:* Friday, July 10, 2020 9:48 AM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Might be political - trigger warning

EXTERNAL EMAIL - Use caution when opening attachments, clicking links, 
or sharing sensitive information.


I think every situation is different. I also believe the police, in 
general, have been given more slack than they should for quite some 
time. The issue is how to deal with this. I do not envy cops. I have a 
nephew who is a cop, and I worry about him all the time.


One of the more recent cases was an individual who was resisting 
arrest. He grabbed, and fired a taser. As I understand it, most tasers 
are one-and-done. IOW, once the taser has been fired, the only 
"weapon" characteristics it has are as a thrown projectile. That 
individual was running away, and was shot in the back. Was that 
justified? I would have a hard time accepting that as a justified 
homicide. But that is only one example.


With the proliferation of cameras everywhere, this sort of thing is 
going to come up more and more.


bp


On 7/10/2020 9:32 AM, ch...@wbmfg.com  wrote:

I am largely ignorant of the issues faced in world of law
enforcement.

And perhaps this is a broader philosophical question with no clear
answers.

A guy, alone at night, in a city, near the location of a reported
armed robbery is confronted by cops, takes off running.

He drops what appears to be a gun, picks it up and keeps running,
should he be shot?

I understand that he may take a hostage or start shooting or
whatever.  He may turn the gun on the cops.

I remember old cop and robber movies when I was a kid where the
cop would yell “stop or I’ll shoot”.

We had the above situation happen here in Utah a while back.  Cops
were found to have done no wrong.

People are understandably upset.

A few years ago, a young man playing with a sword was stopped by
cops, he took off running with the sword and they shot and killed him.

I presume the same justifications apply.

I wonder how often someone with a weapon does harm after evading
the cops.

I wonder how other countries confront the same problem.

If a human gets scared and runs due to uncontrolled fear, should
they be shot?

I was only truly scared once in my life.  Was in a bank robbery.

I understand that your rational thinking goes out the window a bit
when you are really scared.





--
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*Cyber Broadband
*

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Re: [AFMUG] OT Might be political - trigger warning

2020-07-10 Thread Jeff Broadwick - Lists

They had already searched him.

Jeff Broadwick
CTIconnect
312-205-2519 Office
574-220-7826 Cell
jbroadw...@cticonnect.com

> On Jul 10, 2020, at 1:59 PM, Jay Weekley  wrote:
> 
> Is it a Taser or a gun he just pulled from his pants?  You have a half 
> second to decide.
> 
> Charles Boening wrote:
>> 
>> In the Atlanta case the suspect took a taser from the other officer.  A 
>> taser that hadn’t been fired.  He turned and shot that taser at the office 
>> which prompted the office to shoot back.  You can see that in the video.
>> 
>> Not saying it was justified or not.  Just the fact that the suspect even 
>> though fleeing, turned and shot a weapon at the officer.
>> 
>> As for getting shot in the back, that’s easy if the suspect is running away 
>> and turns their torso a bit then extends their arm towards the officer 
>> giving chase.  You can still have your back to the officer giving chase yet 
>> present a threat to that officer.
>> 
>> Note that this picture has the added benefit of daylight and is a training 
>> scenario so tensions wouldn’t be as high.  Also note that you can’t tell 
>> what kind of weapon the suspect has.  Is it real or fake?  Can’t really tell.
>> 
>> __
>> 
>> *Charles Boening*
>> 
>> /Network Manager/
>> 
>> 800-858-2399 | Office
>> 
>> charl...@calore.net 
>> 
>> www.cot.net  | Find us on Facebook 
>> 
>> 
>> __
>> 
>> *Cal-Ore* | /Local. Trusted. Professional./
>> 
>> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of * Bill Prince
>> *Sent:* Friday, July 10, 2020 9:48 AM
>> *To:* af@af.afmug.com
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Might be political - trigger warning
>> 
>> EXTERNAL EMAIL - Use caution when opening attachments, clicking links, or 
>> sharing sensitive information.
>> 
>> I think every situation is different. I also believe the police, in general, 
>> have been given more slack than they should for quite some time. The issue 
>> is how to deal with this. I do not envy cops. I have a nephew who is a cop, 
>> and I worry about him all the time.
>> 
>> One of the more recent cases was an individual who was resisting arrest. He 
>> grabbed, and fired a taser. As I understand it, most tasers are 
>> one-and-done. IOW, once the taser has been fired, the only "weapon" 
>> characteristics it has are as a thrown projectile. That individual was 
>> running away, and was shot in the back. Was that justified? I would have a 
>> hard time accepting that as a justified homicide. But that is only one 
>> example.
>> 
>> With the proliferation of cameras everywhere, this sort of thing is going to 
>> come up more and more.
>> 
>> bp
>> 
>> 
>> On 7/10/2020 9:32 AM, ch...@wbmfg.com  wrote:
>> 
>>I am largely ignorant of the issues faced in world of law
>>enforcement.
>> 
>>And perhaps this is a broader philosophical question with no clear
>>answers.
>> 
>>A guy, alone at night, in a city, near the location of a reported
>>armed robbery is confronted by cops, takes off running.
>> 
>>He drops what appears to be a gun, picks it up and keeps running,
>>should he be shot?
>> 
>>I understand that he may take a hostage or start shooting or
>>whatever.  He may turn the gun on the cops.
>> 
>>I remember old cop and robber movies when I was a kid where the
>>cop would yell “stop or I’ll shoot”.
>> 
>>We had the above situation happen here in Utah a while back. Cops
>>were found to have done no wrong.
>> 
>>People are understandably upset.
>> 
>>A few years ago, a young man playing with a sword was stopped by
>>cops, he took off running with the sword and they shot and killed him.
>> 
>>I presume the same justifications apply.
>> 
>>I wonder how often someone with a weapon does harm after evading
>>the cops.
>> 
>>I wonder how other countries confront the same problem.
>> 
>>If a human gets scared and runs due to uncontrolled fear, should
>>they be shot?
>> 
>>I was only truly scared once in my life.  Was in a bank robbery.
>> 
>>I understand that your rational thinking goes out the window a bit
>>when you are really scared.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> -- 
> *Jay Weekley*
> *Cyber Broadband
> *
> 
> -- 
> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
> https://www.avg.com
> 
> 
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Re: [AFMUG] OT Might be political - trigger warning

2020-07-10 Thread Jeff Broadwick - Lists

Center mass, every time.

Jeff Broadwick
CTIconnect
312-205-2519 Office
574-220-7826 Cell
jbroadw...@cticonnect.com

> On Jul 10, 2020, at 1:05 PM, Cassidy B. Larson  wrote:
> 
> Is it deadly force to shoot them in the leg so they can’t keep running? 
> Easier to recover from a leg wound than a shot to the heart.
> 
>> On Jul 10, 2020, at 10:52 AM, Carl Peterson  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Personal feeling is that unless they present a clear immediate danger to 
>> someone in the immediate vicinity, deadly force is unjustified.  
>> 
>>> On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 11:48 AM Bill Prince  wrote:
>>> I think every situation is different. I also believe the police, in 
>>> general, have been given more slack than they should for quite some time. 
>>> The issue is how to deal with this. I do not envy cops. I have a nephew who 
>>> is a cop, and I worry about him all the time.
>>> 
>>> One of the more recent cases was an individual who was resisting arrest. He 
>>> grabbed, and fired a taser. As I understand it, most tasers are 
>>> one-and-done. IOW, once the taser has been fired, the only "weapon" 
>>> characteristics it has are as a thrown projectile. That individual was 
>>> running away, and was shot in the back. Was that justified? I would have a 
>>> hard time accepting that as a justified homicide. But that is only one 
>>> example. 
>>> 
>>> With the proliferation of cameras everywhere, this sort of thing is going 
>>> to come up more and more.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> bp
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 7/10/2020 9:32 AM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:
 I am largely ignorant of the issues faced in world of law enforcement. 
 And perhaps this is a broader philosophical question with no clear answers.

 A guy, alone at night, in a city, near the location of a reported armed 
 robbery is confronted by cops,  takes off running.
 He drops what appears to be a gun, picks it up and keeps running, should 
 he be shot?

 I understand that he may take a hostage or start shooting or whatever.  He 
 may turn the gun on the cops.
 I remember old cop and robber movies when I was a kid where the cop would 
 yell “stop or I’ll shoot”. 

 We had the above situation happen here in Utah a while back.  Cops were 
 found to have done no wrong.
 People are understandably upset. 
 A few years ago, a young man playing with a sword was stopped by cops, he 
 took off running with the sword and they shot and killed him.
 I presume the same justifications apply. 

 I wonder how often someone with a weapon does harm after evading the cops.
 I wonder how other countries confront the same problem. 
 If a human gets scared and runs due to uncontrolled fear, should they be 
 shot?

 I was only truly scared once in my life.  Was in a bank robbery. 
 I understand that your rational thinking goes out the window a bit when 
 you are really scared.  

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>>> AF mailing list
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>> 
>> 
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Re: [AFMUG] OT Might be political - trigger warning

2020-07-10 Thread Jeff Broadwick - Lists

That taser actually had two shots.  The dude shot them both at the same time.  
Not sure how the cop was supposed to figured that out in a split second.

Jeff Broadwick
CTIconnect
312-205-2519 Office
574-220-7826 Cell
jbroadw...@cticonnect.com

> On Jul 10, 2020, at 12:48 PM, Bill Prince  wrote:
> 
> 
> I think every situation is different. I also believe the police, in general, 
> have been given more slack than they should for quite some time. The issue is 
> how to deal with this. I do not envy cops. I have a nephew who is a cop, and 
> I worry about him all the time.
> 
> One of the more recent cases was an individual who was resisting arrest. He 
> grabbed, and fired a taser. As I understand it, most tasers are one-and-done. 
> IOW, once the taser has been fired, the only "weapon" characteristics it has 
> are as a thrown projectile. That individual was running away, and was shot in 
> the back. Was that justified? I would have a hard time accepting that as a 
> justified homicide. But that is only one example. 
> 
> With the proliferation of cameras everywhere, this sort of thing is going to 
> come up more and more.
> 
> 
> 
> bp
> 
> 
> On 7/10/2020 9:32 AM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:
>> I am largely ignorant of the issues faced in world of law enforcement. 
>> And perhaps this is a broader philosophical question with no clear answers.
>>  
>> A guy, alone at night, in a city, near the location of a reported armed 
>> robbery is confronted by cops,  takes off running.
>> He drops what appears to be a gun, picks it up and keeps running, should he 
>> be shot?
>>  
>> I understand that he may take a hostage or start shooting or whatever.  He 
>> may turn the gun on the cops.
>> I remember old cop and robber movies when I was a kid where the cop would 
>> yell “stop or I’ll shoot”. 
>>  
>> We had the above situation happen here in Utah a while back.  Cops were 
>> found to have done no wrong.
>> People are understandably upset. 
>> A few years ago, a young man playing with a sword was stopped by cops, he 
>> took off running with the sword and they shot and killed him.
>> I presume the same justifications apply. 
>>  
>> I wonder how often someone with a weapon does harm after evading the cops.
>> I wonder how other countries confront the same problem. 
>> If a human gets scared and runs due to uncontrolled fear, should they be 
>> shot?
>>  
>> I was only truly scared once in my life.  Was in a bank robbery. 
>> I understand that your rational thinking goes out the window a bit when you 
>> are really scared.  
>> 
>> 
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Re: [AFMUG] OT Might be political - trigger warning

I had a local deputy take me through the Alabama law enforcement 
firearms qualification test.  The cue to shoot was the word "threat".  
You point a something that may be a gun and the reflexes engage I am sure.


Jeff Broadwick - Lists wrote:
That taser actually had two shots.  The dude shot them both at the 
same time.  Not sure how the cop was supposed to figured that out in a 
split second.


Jeff Broadwick
CTIconnect
312-205-2519 Office
574-220-7826 Cell
jbroadw...@cticonnect.com


On Jul 10, 2020, at 12:48 PM, Bill Prince  wrote:



I think every situation is different. I also believe the police, in 
general, have been given more slack than they should for quite some 
time. The issue is how to deal with this. I do not envy cops. I have 
a nephew who is a cop, and I worry about him all the time.


One of the more recent cases was an individual who was resisting 
arrest. He grabbed, and fired a taser. As I understand it, most 
tasers are one-and-done. IOW, once the taser has been fired, the only 
"weapon" characteristics it has are as a thrown projectile. That 
individual was running away, and was shot in the back. Was that 
justified? I would have a hard time accepting that as a justified 
homicide. But that is only one example.


With the proliferation of cameras everywhere, this sort of thing is 
going to come up more and more.



bp


On 7/10/2020 9:32 AM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:

I am largely ignorant of the issues faced in world of law enforcement.
And perhaps this is a broader philosophical question with no clear 
answers.
A guy, alone at night, in a city, near the location of a reported 
armed robbery is confronted by cops, takes off running.
He drops what appears to be a gun, picks it up and keeps running, 
should he be shot?
I understand that he may take a hostage or start shooting or 
whatever.  He may turn the gun on the cops.
I remember old cop and robber movies when I was a kid where the cop 
would yell “stop or I’ll shoot”.
We had the above situation happen here in Utah a while back.  Cops 
were found to have done no wrong.

People are understandably upset.
A few years ago, a young man playing with a sword was stopped by 
cops, he took off running with the sword and they shot and killed him.

I presume the same justifications apply.
I wonder how often someone with a weapon does harm after evading the 
cops.

I wonder how other countries confront the same problem.
If a human gets scared and runs due to uncontrolled fear, should 
they be shot?

I was only truly scared once in my life.  Was in a bank robbery.
I understand that your rational thinking goes out the window a bit 
when you are really scared.



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Re: [AFMUG] OT Might be political - trigger warning

Can you legally use that on people?

Bill Prince wrote:

My wife is a big advocate of bear spray (Industrial strength pepper
spray). I do not know what the long term risks are to exposure to this
stuff, but the nice thing is that it can shoot a fairly long distance
(up to 40') and you can correct for aim while you're spraying. The one
she has is Counter Assault.

https://www.amazon.com/Counter-Assault-CA-18H-SB-10-2-Ounce/dp/B001DQ76JI/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=bear+spray&qid=1594408467&sr=8-2

On 7/10/2020 11:39 AM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:
If you have your fight or flight mechanism triggered, I don’t think
you should lose your life just because you reacted out of fear.
But man, how do you write regulations around these things and how do
you condition cops to not protect their own lives in certain
situations too.

They also get scared
Tough one. Great Britain banned beat cops from carrying handguns
years ago. Not sure if that is still in effect.
A really effective less than lethal would be great. Perhaps
something that rends someone temporarily blind or confused or
unconscious.
Maybe the right frequency of microwaves modulated at some kind of
brain wave frequency could do it.

Anyone want to volunteer for testing?
*From:* Bill Prince
*Sent:* Friday, July 10, 2020 12:14 PM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Might be political - trigger warning

He fired the taser when they were in close contact (taser is now
done). He then broke away and started running. Officer shot him in
the back a long time after the taser had been discharged. Doesn't
matter what he did with the taser at that point because it had been
discharged.

On 7/10/2020 10:21 AM, Charles Boening wrote:

In the Atlanta case the suspect took a taser from the other
officer. A taser that hadn’t been fired. He turned and shot that
taser at the office which prompted the office to shoot back. You
can see that in the video.

Not saying it was justified or not. Just the fact that the suspect
even though fleeing, turned and shot a weapon at the officer.

As for getting shot in the back, that’s easy if the suspect is
running away and turns their torso a bit then extends their arm
towards the officer giving chase. You can still have your back to
the officer giving chase yet present a threat to that officer.

Note that this picture has the added benefit of daylight and is a
training scenario so tensions wouldn’t be as high. Also note that
you can’t tell what kind of weapon the suspect has. Is it real or
fake? Can’t really tell.

*Charles Boening*

/Network Manager/

800-858-2399 | Office

charl...@calore.net

www.cot.net | Find us on Facebook

*Cal-Ore* | /Local. Trusted. Professional./

*From:* AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com *On Behalf Of *Bill Prince
*Sent:* Friday, July 10, 2020 9:48 AM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Might be political - trigger warning

EXTERNAL EMAIL - Use caution when opening attachments, clicking
links, or sharing sensitive information.

I think every situation is different. I also believe the police, in
general, have been given more slack than they should for quite some
time. The issue is how to deal with this. I do not envy cops. I have
a nephew who is a cop, and I worry about him all the time.

One of the more recent cases was an individual who was resisting
arrest. He grabbed, and fired a taser. As I understand it, most
tasers are one-and-done. IOW, once the taser has been fired, the
only "weapon" characteristics it has are as a thrown projectile.
That individual was running away, and was shot in the back. Was that
justified? I would have a hard time accepting that as a justified
homicide. But that is only one example.

With the proliferation of cameras everywhere, this sort of thing is
going to come up more and more.

On 7/10/2020 9:32 AM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:

I am largely ignorant of the issues faced in world of law
enforcement.

And perhaps this is a broader philosophical question with no
clear answers.

A guy, alone at night, in a city, near the location of a
reported armed robbery is confronted by cops, takes off running.

He drops what appears to be a gun, picks it up and keeps
running, should he be shot?

I understand that he may take a hostage or start shooting or
whatever. He may turn the gun on the cops.

I remember old cop and robber movies when I was a kid where the
cop would yell “stop or I’ll shoot”.

We had the above situation happen here in Utah a while back.
Cops were found to have done no wrong.

People are understandably upset.

A few years ago, a young man playing with a sword was stopped by
cops, he took off running with the sword and they shot and
killed him.

Re: [AFMUG] OT Might be political - trigger warning

They don't say, except that you can't take it on an airplane.

On 7/10/2020 12:47 PM, Jay Weekley wrote:

Can you legally use that on people?

Bill Prince wrote:

My wife is a big advocate of bear spray (Industrial strength pepper
spray). I do not know what the long term risks are to exposure to
this stuff, but the nice thing is that it can shoot a fairly long
distance (up to 40') and you can correct for aim while you're
spraying. The one she has is Counter Assault.

https://www.amazon.com/Counter-Assault-CA-18H-SB-10-2-Ounce/dp/B001DQ76JI/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=bear+spray&qid=1594408467&sr=8-2

Anyone want to volunteer for testing?
*From:* Bill Prince
*Sent:* Friday, July 10, 2020 12:14 PM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Might be political - trigger warning

On 7/10/2020 10:21 AM, Charles Boening wrote:

Not saying it was justified or not. Just the fact that the suspect
even though fleeing, turned and shot a weapon at the officer.

*Charles Boening*

/Network Manager/

800-858-2399 | Office

charl...@calore.net

www.cot.net | Find us on Facebook

*Cal-Ore* | /Local. Trusted. Professional./

*From:* AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com *On Behalf Of *Bill Prince
*Sent:* Friday, July 10, 2020 9:48 AM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Might be political - trigger warning

EXTERNAL EMAIL - Use caution when opening attachments, clicking
links, or sharing sensitive information.

I think every situation is different. I also believe the police, in
general, have been given more slack than they should for quite some
time. The issue is how to deal with this. I do not envy cops. I
have a nephew who is a cop, and I worry about him all the time.

One of the more recent cases was an individual who was resisting
arrest. He grabbed, and fired a taser. As I understand it, most
tasers are one-and-done. IOW, once the taser has been fired, the
only "weapon" characteristics it has are as a thrown projectile.
That individual was running away, and was shot in the back. Was
that justified? I would have a hard time accepting that as a
justified homicide. But that is only one example.

With the proliferation of cameras everywhere, this sort of thing is
going to come up more and more.

On 7/10/2020 9:32 AM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:

I am largely ignorant of the issues faced in world of law
enforcement.

And perhaps this is a broader philosophical question with no
clear answers.

A guy, alone at night, in a city, near the location of a
reported armed robbery is confronted by cops, takes off running.

He drops what appears to be a gun, picks it up and keeps
running, should he be shot?

I understand that he may take a hostage or start shooting or
whatever. He may turn the gun on the cops.

I remember old cop and robber movies when I was a kid where the
cop would yell “stop or I’ll shoot”.

We had the above situation happen here in Utah a while back.
Cops were found to have done no wrong.

People are understandably upset.

A few years ago, a young man playing with

Re: [AFMUG] OT Might be political - trigger warning

According to this, pepper spray is illegal, but bear spray is not. That
said, if you use it as a weapon, you are probably going to be charged.

https://cottagelife.com/outdoors/whats-the-difference-between-bear-spray-and-pepper-spray/

On 7/10/2020 12:47 PM, Jay Weekley wrote:

Can you legally use that on people?

Bill Prince wrote:

My wife is a big advocate of bear spray (Industrial strength pepper
spray). I do not know what the long term risks are to exposure to
this stuff, but the nice thing is that it can shoot a fairly long
distance (up to 40') and you can correct for aim while you're
spraying. The one she has is Counter Assault.

https://www.amazon.com/Counter-Assault-CA-18H-SB-10-2-Ounce/dp/B001DQ76JI/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=bear+spray&qid=1594408467&sr=8-2

Anyone want to volunteer for testing?
*From:* Bill Prince
*Sent:* Friday, July 10, 2020 12:14 PM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Might be political - trigger warning

On 7/10/2020 10:21 AM, Charles Boening wrote:

Not saying it was justified or not. Just the fact that the suspect
even though fleeing, turned and shot a weapon at the officer.

*Charles Boening*

/Network Manager/

800-858-2399 | Office

charl...@calore.net

www.cot.net | Find us on Facebook

*Cal-Ore* | /Local. Trusted. Professional./

*From:* AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com *On Behalf Of *Bill Prince
*Sent:* Friday, July 10, 2020 9:48 AM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Might be political - trigger warning

EXTERNAL EMAIL - Use caution when opening attachments, clicking
links, or sharing sensitive information.

I think every situation is different. I also believe the police, in
general, have been given more slack than they should for quite some
time. The issue is how to deal with this. I do not envy cops. I
have a nephew who is a cop, and I worry about him all the time.

One of the more recent cases was an individual who was resisting
arrest. He grabbed, and fired a taser. As I understand it, most
tasers are one-and-done. IOW, once the taser has been fired, the
only "weapon" characteristics it has are as a thrown projectile.
That individual was running away, and was shot in the back. Was
that justified? I would have a hard time accepting that as a
justified homicide. But that is only one example.

With the proliferation of cameras everywhere, this sort of thing is
going to come up more and more.

On 7/10/2020 9:32 AM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:

I am largely ignorant of the issues faced in world of law
enforcement.

And perhaps this is a broader philosophical question with no
clear answers.

A guy, alone at night, in a city, near the location of a
reported armed robbery is confronted by cops, takes off running.

He drops what appears to be a gun, picks it up and keeps
running, should he be shot?

I understand that he may take a hostage or start shooting or
whatever. He may turn the gun on the cops.

I remember old cop and robber movies when I was a kid where the
cop would yell “stop or I’ll shoot”.

We had the above

Re: [AFMUG] OT Might be political - trigger warning

Charge me, please.  When I finally got out of the building (it was dark by 
then) during the robbery (guy was still inside, had killed a customer) the 
cops didn't know if I was the bad guy or not.  They frisked me pretty good 
and levitated me over to a command center.  I was so happy to be groped and 
dragged and jerked around I would have thanked them for beating me with a 
billy club.  That is how relieved I was to get out of there.


-Original Message- 
From: Bill Prince

Sent: Friday, July 10, 2020 1:58 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Might be political - trigger warning

According to this, pepper spray is illegal, but bear spray is not. That
said, if you use it as a weapon, you are probably going to be charged.

https://cottagelife.com/outdoors/whats-the-difference-between-bear-spray-and-pepper-spray/

bp


On 7/10/2020 12:47 PM, Jay Weekley wrote:

Can you legally use that on people?

Bill Prince wrote:


My wife is a big advocate of bear spray (Industrial strength pepper 
spray). I do not know what the long term risks are to exposure to this 
stuff, but the nice thing is that it can shoot a fairly long distance (up 
to 40') and you can correct for aim while you're spraying. The one she 
has is Counter Assault.


https://www.amazon.com/Counter-Assault-CA-18H-SB-10-2-Ounce/dp/B001DQ76JI/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=bear+spray&qid=1594408467&sr=8-2


bp


On 7/10/2020 11:39 AM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:
If you have your fight or flight mechanism triggered, I don’t think you 
should lose your life just because you reacted out of fear.
But man, how do you write regulations around these things and how do you 
condition cops to not protect their own lives in certain situations too.

They also get scared
Tough one.  Great Britain banned beat cops from carrying handguns years 
ago.  Not sure if that is still in effect.
A really effective less than lethal  would be great. Perhaps something 
that rends someone temporarily blind or confused or unconscious.
Maybe the right frequency of microwaves modulated at some kind of brain 
wave frequency could do it.

Anyone want to volunteer for testing?
*From:* Bill Prince
*Sent:* Friday, July 10, 2020 12:14 PM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Might be political - trigger warning

He fired the taser when they were in close contact (taser is now done). 
He then broke away and started running. Officer shot him in the back a 
long time after the taser had been discharged. Doesn't matter what he 
did with the taser at that point because it had been discharged.


bp


On 7/10/2020 10:21 AM, Charles Boening wrote:


In the Atlanta case the suspect took a taser from the other officer.  A 
taser that hadn’t been fired. He turned and shot that taser at the 
office which prompted the office to shoot back.  You can see that in 
the video.


Not saying it was justified or not.  Just the fact that the suspect 
even though fleeing, turned and shot a weapon at the officer.


As for getting shot in the back, that’s easy if the suspect is running 
away and turns their torso a bit then extends their arm towards the 
officer giving chase.  You can still have your back to the officer 
giving chase yet present a threat to that officer.


Note that this picture has the added benefit of daylight and is a 
training scenario so tensions wouldn’t be as high. Also note that you 
can’t tell what kind of weapon the suspect has.  Is it real or fake? 
Can’t really tell.


__

*Charles Boening*

/Network Manager/

800-858-2399 | Office

charl...@calore.net

www.cot.net  | Find us on Facebook 



__

*Cal-Ore*  | /Local. Trusted. Professional./

*From:* AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com *On Behalf Of *Bill Prince
*Sent:* Friday, July 10, 2020 9:48 AM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Might be political - trigger warning

EXTERNAL EMAIL - Use caution when opening attachments, clicking links, 
or sharing sensitive information.


I think every situation is different. I also believe the police, in 
general, have been given more slack than they should for quite some 
time. The issue is how to deal with this. I do not envy cops. I have a 
nephew who is a cop, and I worry about him all the time.


One of the more recent cases was an individual who was resisting 
arrest. He grabbed, and fired a taser. As I understand it, most tasers 
are one-and-done. IOW, once the taser has been fired, the only "weapon" 
characteristics it has are as a thrown projectile. That individual was 
running away, and was shot in the back. Was that justified? I would 
have a hard time accepting that as a justified homicide. But that is 
only one example.


With the proliferation of cameras everywhere, this sort of thing is 
going to come up more and more.


bp


On 7/10/2020 9:32 AM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:

I am largely ignorant of the iss

[AFMUG] Setting up a private satellite Wi-Fi network is now cheaper and easier than ever | ZDNet

2020-07-10 Thread Jaime Solorza

https://www.zdnet.com/article/setting-up-a-private-satellite-wi-fi-network-is-now-cheaper-and-easier-than-ever/
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Re: [AFMUG] Setting up a private satellite Wi-Fi network is now cheaper and easier than ever | ZDNet

2020-07-10 Thread Ryan Ray

Honestly not that bad. For a work anywhere device that you can use sms gps
and limited web browsing and calls for $50 a month? Cheap.

On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 7:07 PM Jaime Solorza 
wrote:

>
> https://www.zdnet.com/article/setting-up-a-private-satellite-wi-fi-network-is-now-cheaper-and-easier-than-ever/
>
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> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
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AF@af.afmug.com
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Re: [AFMUG] Setting up a private satellite Wi-Fi network is now cheaper and easier than ever | ZDNet