Hi Vic, I wanted to participate in supporting your perspective over this discussion. I fully agree and submit to the thought that the screen reader isn't the culprit though is immediately seen on the line of fire. Educating both users and developers in the system created for accessibility by apple is by far the most important factor for tipping the voice over experience one way or the other.
I for one have been doing this since i first had my macbook almost 3 years ago, and still do so on a fairly constant basis. When presented with a request on accessibility, depending on the degree of acquaintance or compatibility with apple's framework, developers responses are usually very positive and some even find accidental advantages to their own developement methods by using accessibility tools available with x-code. This assumes that apples engineers are going the right path, as they are not layering a framework with another one which use will only complicate developers, quite the opposite; they incumb the tools with a unifying vision of advantages for both sighted and non sighted users, and though this generally requires time and energy, especially considering the competitive environment of tech and software, they are pacing to dictate these procedures into every sector of software developement save heavily graphical applications for which accessibility will require an abstraction no-one has found yet. To list some additional applications which i use beyond those you have mentioned, here is a small list: Alfred shortcut butler of sorts Abbey fine reader express the best OCR i've had so far and easy to use Amadeus pro sound clip and voice memo editing software Chm reader plus reads all chm documents perfectly DJ for my pseudo podcats and mixing pleasure as well as on the fly sampling and live performances Evernote for all aggregating all articles and news clips i deem important for my projects current and future Ibank for my finances, budgets and expense tracking combined with my iphone Icam source using it to check on my cat every now and then and security while we're away Mars edit blogging tool so fast and effective won't change for a lifetime Mportfolio very easy to use portfolio manager, they're about to add applescript support Netnewswire news aggregator which i have been using for years and accessible all round Snowtape internet radio application with a lot of options for recording and scheduling Soundcloud this is where i get all new sounds to check on itunes or other Tapedeck the easiest recording app i've had since i first became a mac user Text expander extremely useful for expanding text whether scripting or editing or mailing Textual completely accessible IRC client Wikibot for fast wikipedia searches and reading without all the annoyances of the web version Yojimbo bookmark, note and password keeper. This one goes hand in hand with evernote in my streamline My point with this list of applications, though i have not listed others, is that they came accessible straight out of the box. This seems different from jaws accessibility which, it sounds to me, still requires downloading scripts for each application. When i look at the support voice over has from both developers, users and apple's accessibility division itself, and compare it with what jaws gets in attention, i'm just not inclined to walk over to microsoft and get a license. Simply put, i'm just happy with my current setup which allows me to stay productive, and any shortcomings in the sound editing department is something of a formality which we are going through since my point was that the switch to total accessibility is a process, and apple having already successfully switched CPU artchitecture from PPC to Intel with minimal disturbance, i believe they can achieve the same in terms of making voice over ubiquitous, easy to implement and more and more configurable yet easy to operate. Ok, i need to jump back to my server :) Best regards Yuma On 24/12/2011, at 3:53 PM, M. Taylor wrote: > Hello Victor, > > Bravo on an excellent post. > > While I did not hear the podcast in question, your comments are well > balanced, thoughtful, and down right compelling. > > Most Sincerely, > > Mark > On Dec 23, 2011, at 5:25 PM, Victor Tsaran wrote: > >> Hello "VoiceOver On" guys and everyone else on the list, >> First of all, I'll start by saying that I am not a Mac fan or anything-one >> else's, for that matter. I am only a fan of myself, <just kidding>. >> I just wanted to share a couple of my thoughts regarding the latest >> "VoiceOver On" podcast because, unfortunately, Twitter's 140-character limit >> is way too limiting for my taste and for the purpose of this message. :) >> >> 1. I think you are correct in saying that many people forget to ask >> themselves what they want to do with the computer. This often leads to >> uninformed decisions and, subsequently, unjustified or unnecessary >> purchases. We all in some ways affected by our friends's opinions, buzz >> words and commercials. Regardless, we need to learn to ask those questions >> so we do not regret our technology choices that will only slow us down and >> make less productive. After all, a computer with an operating system on it >> are just tools to help us live our lives like everyone else does . >> >> 2. Is VoiceOver a bad screen reader? Not at all, IMHO. Is it the best? Of >> course, not. At times VO feels like a work-around altogether, while at other >> time sit feels like the most innovative screen reader on the market. It >> really has both. >> >> Pros: >> - VoiceOver has a pretty good built-in help which most users probably never >> read. >> - VO is a pretty flexible screen reader, especially on Lion, EG through the >> "Activities" feature. >> - Good support for Mail, chat, Calendar, basic text editing with TextEdit, >> Webkit-based browsers (Chrome, Safari, Lightning, iCab etc). >> - A consistent support for applications that are designed wit accessibility >> in mind, EG "YoruFukurou Twitter client" and many others. >> >> Cons: >> - Too complicated system of shortcuts. However, Quicknav and Trackpad >> navigation eliminates the need for many of of those shortcuts. >> - Does not provide efficient environment with production applications like >> Pages, Keynote and Numbers. >> - Apple doesn't do a good job of promoting VoiceOver and/or interface with >> the the end-user. >> >> If I had to pick one of the most innovative features of VoiceOver that will >> have a profound impact on how blind people interact with technology in the >> near future, it would be the "Trackpad Commander". I understand this >> particular tool may not appeal to the generation of users who are fairly >> firm in their computing habits but those young and adventurous should be >> taught to give up their keyboards, especially for exploration purposes. >> >> 3. So, what's the problem and why VoiceOver doesn't let me be productive? >> This is where I feel the podcast participants lead us down the wrong path of >> thinking. Instead of blaming everything on VoiceOver, we should instead >> concentrate our efforts on applications themselves. >> A good example would be the following: Pages and Keynote are not accessible >> because of VoiceOver but primarily because their developers, yes, Apple, did >> not expose the right accessibility interface to VoiceOver. If you removed >> all the JAWS scripts from the JAWS application directory, you would, to your >> surprise, quickly find out that most of the Windows applications you thought >> were accessible actually are not. >> >> I know that NVDA developers expressed a similar concern on several >> occasions, namely, that blind users tend to blame their screen reader first >> before they blame the application itself. >> And you know what? I completely understand why users do this. A regular user >> does not have any insights into what makes their computing experience >> accessible. Since they interface with the computer via a screen reader, if >> something goes wrong, the screen reader is to blame. >> So, we simply need more education. And this is where I wish the podcast >> authors could spend more time and energy. >> >> In summary, it is correct to say that newcomers to technology should first >> familiarize themselves wit choices available on the market and decide which >> ones are the most suitable to their needs. >> It is , however, totally wrong to blame everything on VoiceOver and blame >> the lack of productivity tools on the screen reader at hand. >> >> Just FYI, here is what I use my Mac for and the kinds of apps that serve me >> well. >> - YoruFukurou client for Twitter. >> - Textedit for wordprocessing. >> - Chrome and Safari for web browsing. >> - Mail and iCal for my corporate needs. >> - Garage Band, VLC and iTunes for music. >> - XCode and Dashcode for programming. >> - Cyberduck for FTP uploads and downloads. >> - Terminal for all the Unix-related stuff (geeky). >> - VMWare 4 with Windows 7 if I ever need to jump into Windows for testing or >> otherwise. >> >> How is this not a productive environment? Well, for me it is. >> >> Thanks, >> Vic >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "MacVisionaries" group. >> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "MacVisionaries" group. > To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. 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