Sean, I’m not sure what you’re having trouble with here. It appears that we are not communicating. As I pointed out, the vo cursor tracks with the insertion point. There is no specific vo command to move vo to the beginning of a line. You move the insertion point and if vo doesn’t track, then you rout vo to it. I explained how to read the output console where there isn’t an insertion point. It will put vo at the begining of a line for review.
You scrole through the command history buffer with up and doun arrows. On Feb 15, 2015, at 4:31 PM, Sean Murphy <mhysnm1...@gmail.com> wrote: Barry I am not talking about moving the insert cursor rather the Voice-Over cursor to the beginning of the line. CTRL A and like commands only move the insert cursor there is no command to move the Voice-Over cursor to the beginning of the line when you are reveiwing the history buffer. My experience is the part On 16 Feb 2015, at 2:33 am, Barry Hadder <bhad...@gmail.com <mailto:bhad...@gmail.com>> wrote: > What do you mean by saying you can’t move to the beginning of a line in > terminal? > On the command line or in a text editor such as emacs , do the following: > control-a moves the insertion to the beginning of a line and Voiceover tracks. > control-e moves to the end of a line. > option-f move forward a word. > option-b moves backwards a word. > Note that you need to go into terminal options/profiles/keyboard and make > sure the use option as meta key is checked to some of those commands to work. > > As far as reviewing output written to the console, you can move vo to the > line above the one you want to review than vo-right will put you at the > begining of the line in question. You can then review it with vo-right/left > or vo-shift-right/left. > > On Feb 15, 2015, at 12:21 AM, Sean Murphy <mhysnm1...@gmail.com > <mailto:mhysnm1...@gmail.com>> wrote: > > David and all, > > I agree with your approach. As a user of technology for over 30 years now. > There is no one solution. If you lock yourself into one solution, then you > will find down the track at some time your lack of knowledge and expertise > has left you behind requiring a major re-learning. > > Is the Mac platform without problems? No. Is it apples fault or the vendors > fault. Both. If the product has lack of accessibility and comes from the > Vendor like Microsoft. Then the issue lies in their court. But if there is > features that could make your life easier on the Mac platform then that lies > in apples court. Some areas of improvement I would like to see and have send > to accessi...@apple.com <mailto:accessi...@apple.com> are: > > Improved access to terminal. As yet, you cannot move to the beginning of a > line in Terminal. You can go to the top of the window, to the first line of > the visible text, but not to the beginning of the line you are reviewing with > VO. This feature would be very useful when reviewing information in any > program. > > The challenge with bugs that are reported is how Apple rank them to be fixed. > I do not know how much weighting they give to Voice-Over style bugs. The > other challenge is the period between fixes. If a bug is reported and > verified on the Mac Platform. It could take years before it is fixed. While > bugs on Windows screen readers do take a lot shorter period of time to get > fix. some bugs on both platforms never get fixed because they might not be > able to validate the bug, to complex, breaks to many other features, Product > management slates more important features to be address and the poor old > developer hasn’t got time to address the bug, etc. this is the nature of the > beast when using a major main stream vendor vs small vendors. Normally small > vendors are faster to respond to issues then larger because of their internal > processes and competing other priorities in the organisation. > > On the iPhone I will admit 8.xx version of iOS is the worst release I have > seen from Apple. crashes of Voice-Over, Voice-over being stuck on elements > within Audible and other programs, Voice-over not responding to taps, When > swiping through a app VO jus to different areas of the app, not the next item > and so on. Everything I have outlined here has not been seen in 7.xx and it > is just to much hassle to role back. I have reported some of the issues I > have found and the response from apple was not very encouraging. EG: We have > forwarded your issue on to the product owner. That means nothing and far as I > am concern they have passed on the buck to someone else and the issue has > gone into a black hole. Their customer management could improve greatly. Then > I am a customer of them and a small one at that. Thus if I walk, it doesn’t > hurt them. this is the problem when a company is the favour of the year and > is growing like apple. Microsoft and other large companies when they were on > the up swing of market growth went through the same problems. So it isn’t > anything new what I have outlined. > > Sean > > > > > >> On 13 Feb 2015, at 11:31 am, David Griffith <daj.griff...@gmail.com >> <mailto:daj.griff...@gmail.com>> wrote: >> >> I too must confess that I am not a braille user on the Mac so cannot comment >> on how frustrating this is. however there do seem to be a lot of people >> using Braille happily on the MacVisionaries list so perhaps there is some >> expertise you can tap into there to get support. Apart from that I agree >> with all >> Barry has said. I also agree that there are areas that the experience on the >> Mac can improve but equally I could compile a much longer list of complaints >> / disappointments with Windows and the various Screenreaders and Windows OS >> problems. . . Only today I was experiencing the frustration of Jaw’s >> inability to accurately copy and paste text to and from ,html content. >> This is a long standing annoyance at what should be a basic function which >> has existed for me since Jaws 14 and shows no sign of being resolved in 16. >> I can work around it by using NVDA but this and other deficiencies >> definitely exist on Windows. I still prefer the Mac overwhelmingly for many >> functions, including web browsing. >> The Mac also provides for free a voice dictation and command interface which >> for me personally outperforms anything I have bought on the Windows >> platform, including Dragon Naturally Speaking. >> >> I agree that there is a problem with the implementation of advance Office >> support on the Mac. However this is to a large extent about the lack of >> depth in the compilation of strategies compared to the information, >> tutorials and guides available on the Windows side. Apple has relatively >> little interest in promoting Microsoft Office and will pay lip service only >> to supporting this format in many cases. This is understandable given the >> competing nature of their suites. >> Hopefully there is a lot to look forward to when the allegedly fully >> Voiceover accessible version of Microsoft Office is released later this year. >> >> I am in the fortunate position of having access to Mac and Windows. For some >> things only Windows will do. For example Safari seems to fall over with my >> bank web site. Equally there are things I will always if given a preference >> will do on the Mac side. In general for me as long as it works, I prefer >> doing things on the Mac now. >> >> However I want to advance my capability on all platforms. I try to learn as >> much as I can about not just Windows and Mac OS, but also iOS and Android. >> Unfortunately I have never been able to get a Linux/vinux environment >> working properly otherwise I would be delving into that as well. Some might >> see this as a geeky approach but my view in the struggle to overcome visual >> impairment we should, if we can afford it, utilise every useful option open >> to us. >> >> In the spectrum of options available I think both MacOs and iOS have >> defensible and honourable records. >> >> David Griffith >> >> >>> On 12 Feb 2015, at 23:29, Barry Hadder <bhad...@gmail.com >>> <mailto:bhad...@gmail.com>> wrote: >>> >>> Well, as I don’t use braille, I will not comment to much on that except >>> just to say that I think it’s a little odd to seemingly not egknolege the >>> significance of an off the shelf system with braille support out of the box >>> and not find away to make good use of it. >>> With that said, there are some problems with some of your assertions that I >>> feel need to be addrest since nobody else has done so yet. I Also should >>> point out that it is unclear to me at times whether or not your points are >>> in reference to braille or speech. So, there may be some occasional >>> misunderstanding on my part. >>> >>> 1. Third party icons on the status bar are accessible with Voiceover. >>> Specifically the Dropbox app. Any problems that may occur will be more to >>> due with the third party developer rather than Apple. I don’t understand >>> why you said they can’t be accessed with Voiceover. >>> 2. The idea that there should be some kind of constant indicator that >>> quicknav is turned on is your opinion. It is not an accessibility issue. >>> This could be classified as a feature request however. >>> 3. What do you mean by network stations? I have no idea what button in >>> finder that you are referring to that connects to all available network >>> shares at once. I know of no such button nor have I found any reference to >>> this function in the help documentation. Finding and connecting to network >>> shares in finder is quite easy to do with voiceover and if you want OS X to >>> automatically connect to shares on your network, you can easily set this up >>> in user preferences. So, I see no accessibility issue here. It’s possible >>> however that I’m not understanding what you are referring to, but in any >>> event I fail to see how this one thing could impact the usability of OS X >>> for blind people to the extent that one would email Tim Cook. >>> 4. Your subject is quality of osx with voiceover for people with >>> dissablities. However, I don’t see how iWork compatibility with MS office >>> has anything to do spasifically with blind people being able to use OS X. >>> 5. With regard to manipulating the mouse with vo, there are some valid >>> concerns that need to be addressed, but emailing Tim Cook is not the >>> correct way to do that. I think it should also be said that flooding Apple >>> with invalid complaints will increase the risk that the valid ones will go >>> unnoticed or be ignored. >>> >>> Finally, it’s good to hope for and expect new innovations including ones >>> for disabilities, but it is also necessary to egknolege what has been done >>> which I think is considerable and to be willing to make good use of what we >>> have. >>> >>> >>> On Feb 11, 2015, at 4:38 PM, William Windels <william.wind...@gmail.com >>> <mailto:william.wind...@gmail.com>> wrote: >>> >>> Hello, >>> >>> I am writing to you since the progress of the accessibility features are >>> really pour in the last releases of osx 10.10.2. >>> The mac is still missing some important features against windows with a >>> commercial screenreader, and this after more 6 years of voiceover as >>> built-in screenreader. >>> Ok, voiceover is still a free, built-in screenreader but on windows , there >>> are 2 free screenreader for the windows platform that are better in some >>> cases than voiceover. >>> >>> Braille is still very basicnin osx: >>> Some daily problems I discover with voiceover: >>> I can’t follow courses with only braille output (without speech) during >>> colleges. >>> I mean: there is some important information missing on the braille display >>> that’s only available with speech. >>> >>> What is missing: >>>>> 1- no option for word wrapping: this can be useful for fast reading >>>>> (loudly); >>>>> 2- no different modes line, structured, speech (like in jaws): specialy >>>>> structured mode in jaws is configurable, type of controls is shown, >>>>> interaction-levels could be shown on this way. >>>>> It’s e.g. very frustrating if you are in a text area and you can read all >>>>> with the braille-line but you can’t edit or simply move the cursor to any >>>>> position that is visible on the braille display. >>>>> >>>>> 3- to know if quicknav is on/off before moving isn’t possible also. >>>>> On this way , it’s very easy to lose your position in a text-area or a >>>>> window. >>>>> The quick-nav option has also some bugs in general but is sometimes very >>>>> useful for navigation (and specially on a macbook). >>> >>>>> 4- In some cases, the text that’s in the voiceover cursor is (always) >>>>> underlineed with dots 7-8. On this way , no other attributes are shown >>>>> and the cursor isn’t shown. If dots 7,8 are turned off, the cursor isn’t >>>>> visible at all and capitals aren’t shown also. >>>>> >>>>> 5- When i put the cursor on a letter in a text I delete a .(dot) sign on >>>>> the left sign of the cursor and voiceover says sometimes something else. >>> >>> >>> >>> further braille bugs: >>> cursor routing on the first sign of the braille-display: the text on the >>> display is gone; >>> when composing a message to multiple recipients , while the speech is >>> saying correctly the contact that has the focus, the braille display isn’t >>> following. >>> >>>>> Further: >>> >>> >>> Some bugs since 10.9 aren’t fixed: >>> the icons in the statusbar like the third party app dropbox can’t be >>> accessed with voiceover from there. >>> The drag and drop-function with voiceover is not improved since the >>> introduction in osx 10.7 and gives not the same possibilities for blind >>> users as for sighted users. >>> The button to mount all external (network)-stations at once in finder is >>> not accessible with voiceover; >>> >>> And some different points: >>> Ibooks was basically accessible with voiceover after one update from osx >>> 10.9 to osx 10.10. >>> >>> iWork’s is mainly accessible but is still missing some important >>> compatibility options to work together with ms office. >>> (most of the people that work in a administrative job, use windows with ms >>> office). >>> >>> I still love the mac because of some intuïtive features like the trackpad >>> with voiceover, time-machine, the possibility to maintain the system as >>> blind user on my own. >>> But , I don’t know if the newest features for blind users are good and >>> innovative enough to spend that much money on. >>> >>> With so great financial results the last weeks that where announced from >>> Apple, I should hope that more innovation is coming for people with >>> disabilities. >>> >>> Keep on the work that Steve Jobs has started. >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> William Windels >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com >>> <mailto:macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com>. >>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com >>> <mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries >>> <http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries>. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout >>> <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. >>> >>> Barry Hadder >>> bhad...@gmail.com <mailto:bhad...@gmail.com> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com >>> <mailto:macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com>. >>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com >>> <mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries >>> <http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries>. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout >>> <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "MacVisionaries" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com >> <mailto:macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com>. >> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com >> <mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries >> <http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries>. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout >> <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "MacVisionaries" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > <mailto:macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com>. > To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com > <mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries > <http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries>. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout > <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. > > Barry Hadder > bhad...@gmail.com <mailto:bhad...@gmail.com> > > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "MacVisionaries" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > <mailto:macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com>. > To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com > <mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries > <http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries>. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout > <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com <mailto:macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com>. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com <mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries <http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries>. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. Barry Hadder bhad...@gmail.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
