i sorry to interrupt you with this topic, i just wonder how you could edit the terminal, since i posted some commands there for viewing hidden folders and pasted again a command to hide the folders back. On 17 Feb 2015, at 09:37 am, Barry Hadder <bhad...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Sean, > > I believe we were on the same page. I don’t think that you read my entire > post however. I refer to this: > > As far as reviewing output written to the console, you can move vo to the > line above the one you want to review than vo-right will put you at the > beginning of the line in question. You can then review it with vo-right/left > or vo-shift-right/left. > > I didn’t know exactly what you were talking about so I just covered all of > the bases. > When you move vo up a line in the console, it is all ready at the end of the > line because it scanned through it real quick so it could read it back. All > you have to do to read the file is vo-left. So, I’m not understanding way > you feel you need an end of line command for vo. I should also point out > that it might be more productive to pipe ls through less and hitting / to > search for a particular file if there are hundreds. > Your wording was to the affect that one could not move vo to the beginning or > end of a line. That was not correct. I think that more care should be taken > when reporting problems to Apple. If you feel that the method I suggested > above to move to the beginning is not workable, than we are just going to > have to disagree and I’m not interested in arguing over that. Yu have to > decide what system you feel more comfortable and productive with. If you are > saying that you feel that Voiceover should have a command to move to the ends > of the line, then that is your opinion. I personally think that is a silly > standard but that’s find to report to Apple as far as I’m concerned as that > is very different than claiming that vo can’t move to the ends of the lines. > However, Voiceover doesn’t work under that premise. > > On Feb 16, 2015, at 11:30 PM, Sean Murphy <mhysnm1...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Barry, > > I agree we are not on the same page. Below are the steps to reproduce the > issue I have outlined. > > 1. Open terminal and interact with the text area of the terminal. > 2. Issue a ls -l on a directory with a lot of files/directories. Lets say > over 25 files. > 3. Now use vo-up arrow to move up the screen. Keep going for at least 5 to 6 > lines. > 7. You want to go to the end of the line so you can read out the file name. > There is no keystroke to do this. Since VO cannot move you to the end of the > current line. You have to either move by word towards the right or move down > the line and move left by word. > > When I refer to the history buffer, I was not referring to the command > history buffer. But the history of the previous information being displayed. > Only way to review this information is via the VO cursor. I review a lot of > log outputs from devices that I connect to via the terminal. Thus the > information scrolls off the screen and you can use the VO cursor to move to > the beginning of a output that shows over 100 lines of info. It would be > really nice if you could jump to the beginning and end of the current line > that you are currently reviewing when you have moved up the screen using the > VO cursor. You do not want to move the insert cursor when you do this. It is > like a pre-view of past displayed information. > > > > >> On 16 Feb 2015, at 10:16 am, Barry Hadder <bhad...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> Sean, >> >> I’m not sure what you’re having trouble with here. It appears that we are >> not communicating. >> As I pointed out, the vo cursor tracks with the insertion point. >> There is no specific vo command to move vo to the beginning of a line. You >> move the insertion point and if vo doesn’t track, then you rout vo to it. >> I explained how to read the output console where there isn’t an insertion >> point. It will put vo at the beginning of a line for review. >> >> You scrole through the command history buffer with up and doun arrows. >> >> On Feb 15, 2015, at 4:31 PM, Sean Murphy <mhysnm1...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> Barry >> >> I am not talking about moving the insert cursor rather the Voice-Over >> cursor to the beginning of the line. CTRL A and like commands only move the >> insert cursor there is no command to move the Voice-Over cursor to the >> beginning of the line when you are reveiwing the history buffer. >> >> My experience is the part >> >> On 16 Feb 2015, at 2:33 am, Barry Hadder <bhad...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> What do you mean by saying you can’t move to the beginning of a line in >>> terminal? >>> On the command line or in a text editor such as emacs , do the following: >>> control-a moves the insertion to the beginning of a line and Voiceover >>> tracks. >>> control-e moves to the end of a line. >>> option-f move forward a word. >>> option-b moves backwards a word. >>> Note that you need to go into terminal options/profiles/keyboard and make >>> sure the use option as meta key is checked to some of those commands to >>> work. >>> >>> As far as reviewing output written to the console, you can move vo to the >>> line above the one you want to review than vo-right will put you at the >>> begining of the line in question. You can then review it with >>> vo-right/left or vo-shift-right/left. >>> >>> On Feb 15, 2015, at 12:21 AM, Sean Murphy <mhysnm1...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> David and all, >>> >>> I agree with your approach. As a user of technology for over 30 years now. >>> There is no one solution. If you lock yourself into one solution, then you >>> will find down the track at some time your lack of knowledge and expertise >>> has left you behind requiring a major re-learning. >>> >>> Is the Mac platform without problems? No. Is it apples fault or the vendors >>> fault. Both. If the product has lack of accessibility and comes from the >>> Vendor like Microsoft. Then the issue lies in their court. But if there is >>> features that could make your life easier on the Mac platform then that >>> lies in apples court. Some areas of improvement I would like to see and >>> have send to accessi...@apple.com are: >>> >>> Improved access to terminal. As yet, you cannot move to the beginning of a >>> line in Terminal. You can go to the top of the window, to the first line of >>> the visible text, but not to the beginning of the line you are reviewing >>> with VO. This feature would be very useful when reviewing information in >>> any program. >>> >>> The challenge with bugs that are reported is how Apple rank them to be >>> fixed. I do not know how much weighting they give to Voice-Over style bugs. >>> The other challenge is the period between fixes. If a bug is reported and >>> verified on the Mac Platform. It could take years before it is fixed. While >>> bugs on Windows screen readers do take a lot shorter period of time to get >>> fix. some bugs on both platforms never get fixed because they might not be >>> able to validate the bug, to complex, breaks to many other features, >>> Product management slates more important features to be address and the >>> poor old developer hasn’t got time to address the bug, etc. this is the >>> nature of the beast when using a major main stream vendor vs small >>> vendors. Normally small vendors are faster to respond to issues then larger >>> because of their internal processes and competing other priorities in the >>> organisation. >>> >>> On the iPhone I will admit 8.xx version of iOS is the worst release I have >>> seen from Apple. crashes of Voice-Over, Voice-over being stuck on elements >>> within Audible and other programs, Voice-over not responding to taps, When >>> swiping through a app VO jus to different areas of the app, not the next >>> item and so on. Everything I have outlined here has not been seen in 7.xx >>> and it is just to much hassle to role back. I have reported some of the >>> issues I have found and the response from apple was not very encouraging. >>> EG: We have forwarded your issue on to the product owner. That means >>> nothing and far as I am concern they have passed on the buck to someone >>> else and the issue has gone into a black hole. Their customer management >>> could improve greatly. Then I am a customer of them and a small one at >>> that. Thus if I walk, it doesn’t hurt them. this is the problem when a >>> company is the favour of the year and is growing like apple. Microsoft and >>> other large companies when they were on the up swing of market growth went >>> through the same problems. So it isn’t anything new what I have outlined. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> On 13 Feb 2015, at 11:31 am, David Griffith <daj.griff...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> I too must confess that I am not a braille user on the Mac so cannot >>>> comment on how frustrating this is. however there do seem to be a lot of >>>> people using Braille happily on the MacVisionaries list so perhaps there >>>> is some expertise you can tap into there to get support. Apart from that I >>>> agree with all >>>> Barry has said. I also agree that there are areas that the experience on >>>> the Mac can improve but equally I could compile a much longer list of >>>> complaints / disappointments with Windows and the various Screenreaders >>>> and Windows OS problems. . . Only today I was experiencing the frustration >>>> of Jaw’s inability to accurately copy and paste text to and from ,html >>>> content. This is a long standing annoyance at what should be a basic >>>> function which has existed for me since Jaws 14 and shows no sign of being >>>> resolved in 16. >>>> I can work around it by using NVDA but this and other deficiencies >>>> definitely exist on Windows. I still prefer the Mac overwhelmingly for >>>> many functions, including web browsing. >>>> The Mac also provides for free a voice dictation and command interface >>>> which for me personally outperforms anything I have bought on the >>>> Windows platform, including Dragon Naturally Speaking. >>>> >>>> I agree that there is a problem with the implementation of advance Office >>>> support on the Mac. However this is to a large extent about the lack of >>>> depth in the compilation of strategies compared to the information, >>>> tutorials and guides available on the Windows side. Apple has relatively >>>> little interest in promoting Microsoft Office and will pay lip service >>>> only to supporting this format in many cases. This is understandable given >>>> the competing nature of their suites. >>>> Hopefully there is a lot to look forward to when the allegedly fully >>>> Voiceover accessible version of Microsoft Office is released later this >>>> year. >>>> >>>> I am in the fortunate position of having access to Mac and Windows. For >>>> some things only Windows will do. For example Safari seems to fall over >>>> with my bank web site. Equally there are things I will always if given a >>>> preference will do on the Mac side. In general for me as long as it works, >>>> I prefer doing things on the Mac now. >>>> >>>> However I want to advance my capability on all platforms. I try to learn >>>> as much as I can about not just Windows and Mac OS, but also iOS and >>>> Android. Unfortunately I have never been able to get a Linux/vinux >>>> environment working properly otherwise I would be delving into that as >>>> well. Some might see this as a geeky approach but my view in the struggle >>>> to overcome visual impairment we should, if we can afford it, utilise >>>> every useful option open to us. >>>> >>>> In the spectrum of options available I think both MacOs and iOS have >>>> defensible and honourable records. >>>> >>>> David Griffith >>>> >>>> >>>>> On 12 Feb 2015, at 23:29, Barry Hadder <bhad...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Well, as I don’t use braille, I will not comment to much on that except >>>>> just to say that I think it’s a little odd to seemingly not egknolege the >>>>> significance of an off the shelf system with braille support out of the >>>>> box and not find away to make good use of it. >>>>> With that said, there are some problems with some of your assertions that >>>>> I feel need to be addrest since nobody else has done so yet. I Also >>>>> should point out that it is unclear to me at times whether or not your >>>>> points are in reference to braille or speech. So, there may be some >>>>> occasional misunderstanding on my part. >>>>> >>>>> 1. Third party icons on the status bar are accessible with Voiceover. >>>>> Specifically the Dropbox app. Any problems that may occur will be more >>>>> to due with the third party developer rather than Apple. I don’t >>>>> understand why you said they can’t be accessed with Voiceover. >>>>> 2. The idea that there should be some kind of constant indicator that >>>>> quicknav is turned on is your opinion. It is not an accessibility issue. >>>>> This could be classified as a feature request however. >>>>> 3. What do you mean by network stations? I have no idea what button in >>>>> finder that you are referring to that connects to all available network >>>>> shares at once. I know of no such button nor have I found any reference >>>>> to this function in the help documentation. Finding and connecting to >>>>> network shares in finder is quite easy to do with voiceover and if you >>>>> want OS X to automatically connect to shares on your network, you can >>>>> easily set this up in user preferences. So, I see no accessibility issue >>>>> here. It’s possible however that I’m not understanding what you are >>>>> referring to, but in any event I fail to see how this one thing could >>>>> impact the usability of OS X for blind people to the extent that one >>>>> would email Tim Cook. >>>>> 4. Your subject is quality of osx with voiceover for people with >>>>> dissablities. However, I don’t see how iWork compatibility with MS >>>>> office has anything to do spasifically with blind people being able to >>>>> use OS X. >>>>> 5. With regard to manipulating the mouse with vo, there are some valid >>>>> concerns that need to be addressed, but emailing Tim Cook is not the >>>>> correct way to do that. I think it should also be said that flooding >>>>> Apple with invalid complaints will increase the risk that the valid ones >>>>> will go unnoticed or be ignored. >>>>> >>>>> Finally, it’s good to hope for and expect new innovations including ones >>>>> for disabilities, but it is also necessary to egknolege what has been >>>>> done which I think is considerable and to be willing to make good use of >>>>> what we have. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Feb 11, 2015, at 4:38 PM, William Windels <william.wind...@gmail.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hello, >>>>> >>>>> I am writing to you since the progress of the accessibility features are >>>>> really pour in the last releases of osx 10.10.2. >>>>> The mac is still missing some important features against windows with a >>>>> commercial screenreader, and this after more 6 years of voiceover as >>>>> built-in screenreader. >>>>> Ok, voiceover is still a free, built-in screenreader but on windows , >>>>> there are 2 free screenreader for the windows platform that are better in >>>>> some cases than voiceover. >>>>> >>>>> Braille is still very basicnin osx: >>>>> Some daily problems I discover with voiceover: >>>>> I can’t follow courses with only braille output (without speech) during >>>>> colleges. >>>>> I mean: there is some important information missing on the braille >>>>> display that’s only available with speech. >>>>> >>>>> What is missing: >>>>>>> 1- no option for word wrapping: this can be useful for fast reading >>>>>>> (loudly); >>>>>>> 2- no different modes line, structured, speech (like in jaws): specialy >>>>>>> structured mode in jaws is configurable, type of controls is shown, >>>>>>> interaction-levels could be shown on this way. >>>>>>> It’s e.g. very frustrating if you are in a text area and you can read >>>>>>> all with the braille-line but you can’t edit or simply move the cursor >>>>>>> to any position that is visible on the braille display. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 3- to know if quicknav is on/off before moving isn’t possible also. >>>>>>> On this way , it’s very easy to lose your position in a text-area or a >>>>>>> window. >>>>>>> The quick-nav option has also some bugs in general but is sometimes >>>>>>> very useful for navigation (and specially on a macbook). >>>>> >>>>>>> 4- In some cases, the text that’s in the voiceover cursor is (always) >>>>>>> underlineed with dots 7-8. On this way , no other attributes are shown >>>>>>> and the cursor isn’t shown. If dots 7,8 are turned off, the cursor >>>>>>> isn’t visible at all and capitals aren’t shown also. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 5- When i put the cursor on a letter in a text I delete a .(dot) sign >>>>>>> on the left sign of the cursor and voiceover says sometimes something >>>>>>> else. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> further braille bugs: >>>>> cursor routing on the first sign of the braille-display: the text on the >>>>> display is gone; >>>>> when composing a message to multiple recipients , while the speech is >>>>> saying correctly the contact that has the focus, the braille display >>>>> isn’t following. >>>>> >>>>>>> Further: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Some bugs since 10.9 aren’t fixed: >>>>> the icons in the statusbar like the third party app dropbox can’t be >>>>> accessed with voiceover from there. >>>>> The drag and drop-function with voiceover is not improved since the >>>>> introduction in osx 10.7 and gives not the same possibilities for blind >>>>> users as for sighted users. >>>>> The button to mount all external (network)-stations at once in finder is >>>>> not accessible with voiceover; >>>>> >>>>> And some different points: >>>>> Ibooks was basically accessible with voiceover after one update from osx >>>>> 10.9 to osx 10.10. >>>>> >>>>> iWork’s is mainly accessible but is still missing some important >>>>> compatibility options to work together with ms office. >>>>> (most of the people that work in a administrative job, use windows with >>>>> ms office). >>>>> >>>>> I still love the mac because of some intuïtive features like the trackpad >>>>> with voiceover, time-machine, the possibility to maintain the system as >>>>> blind user on my own. >>>>> But , I don’t know if the newest features for blind users are good and >>>>> innovative enough to spend that much money on. >>>>> >>>>> With so great financial results the last weeks that where announced from >>>>> Apple, I should hope that more innovation is coming for people with >>>>> disabilities. >>>>> >>>>> Keep on the work that Steve Jobs has started. >>>>> >>>>> Kind regards, >>>>> William Windels >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>>>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>> >>>>> Barry Hadder >>>>> bhad...@gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>>>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >>> Barry Hadder >>> bhad...@gmail.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "MacVisionaries" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> >> Barry Hadder >> bhad...@gmail.com >> >> >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "MacVisionaries" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "MacVisionaries" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > Barry Hadder > bhad...@gmail.com > > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "MacVisionaries" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
