Sean, I believe we were on the same page. I don’t think that you read my entire post however. I refer to this:
As far as reviewing output written to the console, you can move vo to the line above the one you want to review than vo-right will put you at the beginning of the line in question. You can then review it with vo-right/left or vo-shift-right/left. I didn’t know exactly what you were talking about so I just covered all of the bases. When you move vo up a line in the console, it is all ready at the end of the line because it scanned through it real quick so it could read it back. All you have to do to read the file is vo-left. So, I’m not understanding way you feel you need an end of line command for vo. I should also point out that it might be more productive to pipe ls through less and hitting / to search for a particular file if there are hundreds. Your wording was to the affect that one could not move vo to the beginning or end of a line. That was not correct. I think that more care should be taken when reporting problems to Apple. If you feel that the method I suggested above to move to the beginning is not workable, than we are just going to have to disagree and I’m not interested in arguing over that. Yu have to decide what system you feel more comfortable and productive with. If you are saying that you feel that Voiceover should have a command to move to the ends of the line, then that is your opinion. I personally think that is a silly standard but that’s find to report to Apple as far as I’m concerned as that is very different than claiming that vo can’t move to the ends of the lines. However, Voiceover doesn’t work under that premise. On Feb 16, 2015, at 11:30 PM, Sean Murphy <mhysnm1...@gmail.com> wrote: Barry, I agree we are not on the same page. Below are the steps to reproduce the issue I have outlined. 1. Open terminal and interact with the text area of the terminal. 2. Issue a ls -l on a directory with a lot of files/directories. Lets say over 25 files. 3. Now use vo-up arrow to move up the screen. Keep going for at least 5 to 6 lines. 7. You want to go to the end of the line so you can read out the file name. There is no keystroke to do this. Since VO cannot move you to the end of the current line. You have to either move by word towards the right or move down the line and move left by word. When I refer to the history buffer, I was not referring to the command history buffer. But the history of the previous information being displayed. Only way to review this information is via the VO cursor. I review a lot of log outputs from devices that I connect to via the terminal. Thus the information scrolls off the screen and you can use the VO cursor to move to the beginning of a output that shows over 100 lines of info. It would be really nice if you could jump to the beginning and end of the current line that you are currently reviewing when you have moved up the screen using the VO cursor. You do not want to move the insert cursor when you do this. It is like a pre-view of past displayed information. > On 16 Feb 2015, at 10:16 am, Barry Hadder <bhad...@gmail.com > <mailto:bhad...@gmail.com>> wrote: > > Sean, > > I’m not sure what you’re having trouble with here. It appears that we are > not communicating. > As I pointed out, the vo cursor tracks with the insertion point. > There is no specific vo command to move vo to the beginning of a line. You > move the insertion point and if vo doesn’t track, then you rout vo to it. > I explained how to read the output console where there isn’t an insertion > point. It will put vo at the beginning of a line for review. > > You scrole through the command history buffer with up and doun arrows. > > On Feb 15, 2015, at 4:31 PM, Sean Murphy <mhysnm1...@gmail.com > <mailto:mhysnm1...@gmail.com>> wrote: > > Barry > > I am not talking about moving the insert cursor rather the Voice-Over cursor > to the beginning of the line. CTRL A and like commands only move the insert > cursor there is no command to move the Voice-Over cursor to the beginning of > the line when you are reveiwing the history buffer. > > My experience is the part > > On 16 Feb 2015, at 2:33 am, Barry Hadder <bhad...@gmail.com > <mailto:bhad...@gmail.com>> wrote: > >> What do you mean by saying you can’t move to the beginning of a line in >> terminal? >> On the command line or in a text editor such as emacs , do the following: >> control-a moves the insertion to the beginning of a line and Voiceover >> tracks. >> control-e moves to the end of a line. >> option-f move forward a word. >> option-b moves backwards a word. >> Note that you need to go into terminal options/profiles/keyboard and make >> sure the use option as meta key is checked to some of those commands to work. >> >> As far as reviewing output written to the console, you can move vo to the >> line above the one you want to review than vo-right will put you at the >> begining of the line in question. You can then review it with vo-right/left >> or vo-shift-right/left. >> >> On Feb 15, 2015, at 12:21 AM, Sean Murphy <mhysnm1...@gmail.com >> <mailto:mhysnm1...@gmail.com>> wrote: >> >> David and all, >> >> I agree with your approach. As a user of technology for over 30 years now. >> There is no one solution. If you lock yourself into one solution, then you >> will find down the track at some time your lack of knowledge and expertise >> has left you behind requiring a major re-learning. >> >> Is the Mac platform without problems? No. Is it apples fault or the vendors >> fault. Both. If the product has lack of accessibility and comes from the >> Vendor like Microsoft. Then the issue lies in their court. But if there is >> features that could make your life easier on the Mac platform then that lies >> in apples court. Some areas of improvement I would like to see and have send >> to accessi...@apple.com <mailto:accessi...@apple.com> are: >> >> Improved access to terminal. As yet, you cannot move to the beginning of a >> line in Terminal. You can go to the top of the window, to the first line of >> the visible text, but not to the beginning of the line you are reviewing >> with VO. This feature would be very useful when reviewing information in any >> program. >> >> The challenge with bugs that are reported is how Apple rank them to be >> fixed. I do not know how much weighting they give to Voice-Over style bugs. >> The other challenge is the period between fixes. If a bug is reported and >> verified on the Mac Platform. It could take years before it is fixed. While >> bugs on Windows screen readers do take a lot shorter period of time to get >> fix. some bugs on both platforms never get fixed because they might not be >> able to validate the bug, to complex, breaks to many other features, >> Product management slates more important features to be address and the poor >> old developer hasn’t got time to address the bug, etc. this is the nature of >> the beast when using a major main stream vendor vs small vendors. Normally >> small vendors are faster to respond to issues then larger because of their >> internal processes and competing other priorities in the organisation. >> >> On the iPhone I will admit 8.xx version of iOS is the worst release I have >> seen from Apple. crashes of Voice-Over, Voice-over being stuck on elements >> within Audible and other programs, Voice-over not responding to taps, When >> swiping through a app VO jus to different areas of the app, not the next >> item and so on. Everything I have outlined here has not been seen in 7.xx >> and it is just to much hassle to role back. I have reported some of the >> issues I have found and the response from apple was not very encouraging. >> EG: We have forwarded your issue on to the product owner. That means nothing >> and far as I am concern they have passed on the buck to someone else and the >> issue has gone into a black hole. Their customer management could improve >> greatly. Then I am a customer of them and a small one at that. Thus if I >> walk, it doesn’t hurt them. this is the problem when a company is the favour >> of the year and is growing like apple. Microsoft and other large companies >> when they were on the up swing of market growth went through the same >> problems. So it isn’t anything new what I have outlined. >> >> Sean >> >> >> >> >> >>> On 13 Feb 2015, at 11:31 am, David Griffith <daj.griff...@gmail.com >>> <mailto:daj.griff...@gmail.com>> wrote: >>> >>> I too must confess that I am not a braille user on the Mac so cannot >>> comment on how frustrating this is. however there do seem to be a lot of >>> people using Braille happily on the MacVisionaries list so perhaps there is >>> some expertise you can tap into there to get support. Apart from that I >>> agree with all >>> Barry has said. I also agree that there are areas that the experience on >>> the Mac can improve but equally I could compile a much longer list of >>> complaints / disappointments with Windows and the various Screenreaders and >>> Windows OS problems. . . Only today I was experiencing the frustration of >>> Jaw’s inability to accurately copy and paste text to and from ,html >>> content. This is a long standing annoyance at what should be a basic >>> function which has existed for me since Jaws 14 and shows no sign of being >>> resolved in 16. >>> I can work around it by using NVDA but this and other deficiencies >>> definitely exist on Windows. I still prefer the Mac overwhelmingly for many >>> functions, including web browsing. >>> The Mac also provides for free a voice dictation and command interface >>> which for me personally outperforms anything I have bought on the >>> Windows platform, including Dragon Naturally Speaking. >>> >>> I agree that there is a problem with the implementation of advance Office >>> support on the Mac. However this is to a large extent about the lack of >>> depth in the compilation of strategies compared to the information, >>> tutorials and guides available on the Windows side. Apple has relatively >>> little interest in promoting Microsoft Office and will pay lip service only >>> to supporting this format in many cases. This is understandable given the >>> competing nature of their suites. >>> Hopefully there is a lot to look forward to when the allegedly fully >>> Voiceover accessible version of Microsoft Office is released later this >>> year. >>> >>> I am in the fortunate position of having access to Mac and Windows. For >>> some things only Windows will do. For example Safari seems to fall over >>> with my bank web site. Equally there are things I will always if given a >>> preference will do on the Mac side. In general for me as long as it works, >>> I prefer doing things on the Mac now. >>> >>> However I want to advance my capability on all platforms. I try to learn >>> as much as I can about not just Windows and Mac OS, but also iOS and >>> Android. Unfortunately I have never been able to get a Linux/vinux >>> environment working properly otherwise I would be delving into that as >>> well. Some might see this as a geeky approach but my view in the struggle >>> to overcome visual impairment we should, if we can afford it, utilise every >>> useful option open to us. >>> >>> In the spectrum of options available I think both MacOs and iOS have >>> defensible and honourable records. >>> >>> David Griffith >>> >>> >>>> On 12 Feb 2015, at 23:29, Barry Hadder <bhad...@gmail.com >>>> <mailto:bhad...@gmail.com>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Well, as I don’t use braille, I will not comment to much on that except >>>> just to say that I think it’s a little odd to seemingly not egknolege the >>>> significance of an off the shelf system with braille support out of the >>>> box and not find away to make good use of it. >>>> With that said, there are some problems with some of your assertions that >>>> I feel need to be addrest since nobody else has done so yet. I Also >>>> should point out that it is unclear to me at times whether or not your >>>> points are in reference to braille or speech. So, there may be some >>>> occasional misunderstanding on my part. >>>> >>>> 1. Third party icons on the status bar are accessible with Voiceover. >>>> Specifically the Dropbox app. Any problems that may occur will be more to >>>> due with the third party developer rather than Apple. I don’t understand >>>> why you said they can’t be accessed with Voiceover. >>>> 2. The idea that there should be some kind of constant indicator that >>>> quicknav is turned on is your opinion. It is not an accessibility issue. >>>> This could be classified as a feature request however. >>>> 3. What do you mean by network stations? I have no idea what button in >>>> finder that you are referring to that connects to all available network >>>> shares at once. I know of no such button nor have I found any reference >>>> to this function in the help documentation. Finding and connecting to >>>> network shares in finder is quite easy to do with voiceover and if you >>>> want OS X to automatically connect to shares on your network, you can >>>> easily set this up in user preferences. So, I see no accessibility issue >>>> here. It’s possible however that I’m not understanding what you are >>>> referring to, but in any event I fail to see how this one thing could >>>> impact the usability of OS X for blind people to the extent that one would >>>> email Tim Cook. >>>> 4. Your subject is quality of osx with voiceover for people with >>>> dissablities. However, I don’t see how iWork compatibility with MS office >>>> has anything to do spasifically with blind people being able to use OS X. >>>> 5. With regard to manipulating the mouse with vo, there are some valid >>>> concerns that need to be addressed, but emailing Tim Cook is not the >>>> correct way to do that. I think it should also be said that flooding >>>> Apple with invalid complaints will increase the risk that the valid ones >>>> will go unnoticed or be ignored. >>>> >>>> Finally, it’s good to hope for and expect new innovations including ones >>>> for disabilities, but it is also necessary to egknolege what has been done >>>> which I think is considerable and to be willing to make good use of what >>>> we have. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Feb 11, 2015, at 4:38 PM, William Windels <william.wind...@gmail.com >>>> <mailto:william.wind...@gmail.com>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hello, >>>> >>>> I am writing to you since the progress of the accessibility features are >>>> really pour in the last releases of osx 10.10.2. >>>> The mac is still missing some important features against windows with a >>>> commercial screenreader, and this after more 6 years of voiceover as >>>> built-in screenreader. >>>> Ok, voiceover is still a free, built-in screenreader but on windows , >>>> there are 2 free screenreader for the windows platform that are better in >>>> some cases than voiceover. >>>> >>>> Braille is still very basicnin osx: >>>> Some daily problems I discover with voiceover: >>>> I can’t follow courses with only braille output (without speech) during >>>> colleges. >>>> I mean: there is some important information missing on the braille display >>>> that’s only available with speech. >>>> >>>> What is missing: >>>>>> 1- no option for word wrapping: this can be useful for fast reading >>>>>> (loudly); >>>>>> 2- no different modes line, structured, speech (like in jaws): specialy >>>>>> structured mode in jaws is configurable, type of controls is shown, >>>>>> interaction-levels could be shown on this way. >>>>>> It’s e.g. very frustrating if you are in a text area and you can read >>>>>> all with the braille-line but you can’t edit or simply move the cursor >>>>>> to any position that is visible on the braille display. >>>>>> >>>>>> 3- to know if quicknav is on/off before moving isn’t possible also. >>>>>> On this way , it’s very easy to lose your position in a text-area or a >>>>>> window. >>>>>> The quick-nav option has also some bugs in general but is sometimes very >>>>>> useful for navigation (and specially on a macbook). >>>> >>>>>> 4- In some cases, the text that’s in the voiceover cursor is (always) >>>>>> underlineed with dots 7-8. On this way , no other attributes are shown >>>>>> and the cursor isn’t shown. If dots 7,8 are turned off, the cursor isn’t >>>>>> visible at all and capitals aren’t shown also. >>>>>> >>>>>> 5- When i put the cursor on a letter in a text I delete a .(dot) sign on >>>>>> the left sign of the cursor and voiceover says sometimes something else. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> further braille bugs: >>>> cursor routing on the first sign of the braille-display: the text on the >>>> display is gone; >>>> when composing a message to multiple recipients , while the speech is >>>> saying correctly the contact that has the focus, the braille display isn’t >>>> following. >>>> >>>>>> Further: >>>> >>>> >>>> Some bugs since 10.9 aren’t fixed: >>>> the icons in the statusbar like the third party app dropbox can’t be >>>> accessed with voiceover from there. >>>> The drag and drop-function with voiceover is not improved since the >>>> introduction in osx 10.7 and gives not the same possibilities for blind >>>> users as for sighted users. >>>> The button to mount all external (network)-stations at once in finder is >>>> not accessible with voiceover; >>>> >>>> And some different points: >>>> Ibooks was basically accessible with voiceover after one update from osx >>>> 10.9 to osx 10.10. >>>> >>>> iWork’s is mainly accessible but is still missing some important >>>> compatibility options to work together with ms office. >>>> (most of the people that work in a administrative job, use windows with ms >>>> office). >>>> >>>> I still love the mac because of some intuïtive features like the trackpad >>>> with voiceover, time-machine, the possibility to maintain the system as >>>> blind user on my own. >>>> But , I don’t know if the newest features for blind users are good and >>>> innovative enough to spend that much money on. >>>> >>>> With so great financial results the last weeks that where announced from >>>> Apple, I should hope that more innovation is coming for people with >>>> disabilities. >>>> >>>> Keep on the work that Steve Jobs has started. >>>> >>>> Kind regards, >>>> William Windels >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com >>>> <mailto:macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com>. >>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com >>>> <mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries >>>> <http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries>. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout >>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. >>>> >>>> Barry Hadder >>>> bhad...@gmail.com <mailto:bhad...@gmail.com> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com >>>> <mailto:macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com>. >>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com >>>> <mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries >>>> <http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries>. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout >>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com >>> <mailto:macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com>. >>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com >>> <mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries >>> <http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries>. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout >>> <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "MacVisionaries" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com >> <mailto:macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com>. >> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com >> <mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries >> <http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries>. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout >> <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. >> >> Barry Hadder >> bhad...@gmail.com <mailto:bhad...@gmail.com> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "MacVisionaries" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com >> <mailto:macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com>. >> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com >> <mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries >> <http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries>. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout >> <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "MacVisionaries" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > <mailto:macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com>. > To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com > <mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries > <http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries>. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout > <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. > > Barry Hadder > bhad...@gmail.com <mailto:bhad...@gmail.com> > > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "MacVisionaries" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > <mailto:macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com>. > To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com > <mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries > <http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries>. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout > <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com <mailto:macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com>. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com <mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries <http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries>. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. Barry Hadder bhad...@gmail.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
