On 5/4/2012 4:45 PM, Qrux wrote: > On May 4, 2012, at 1:53 PM, Bruce Dubbs wrote: > >> Qrux wrote: >> >>>> The users need to learn to think about what needs to be done, not just >>>> copy/paste without understanding. >>> As a proxy example of ambiguity, do you not see the...confusion...some might >>> experience when in your previous email, you said: >>> >>>> If you follow the instructions literally, they work. Making inferences and >>>> adding things not in the book is where users run into problems. >>> "Think!" "Don't infer!" >>> >>> I'm saying it could use more clarity. You're saying that you're not >>> technically wrong. Those two can exist at the same time. >> But what you are asking for is more instructions, not more clarity. > I said several things. The first is that there is some potential for > ambiguity in statements like: > > "Think, but don't infer." > > Then, as a practical approach, I suggested repetition--after I suggested more > "signposts" that warn of potential pitfalls. Don't latch on. It was just an > example. You seem to be entrenched in the idea that "if you need signposts, > you're (careless|stupid|lazy). That's not always the case. > > One solution is to keep saying: "Reread Section 5." > > I'm exploring other solutions, because I think it's silly to insist that the > book is well-written when, for every single release, many people are confused > by how to begin Chapter 5. I didn't have an issue. But I can certainly > understand how others might. > >> Section vi. "It is also expected that you have a reasonable knowledge of >> using >> and installing Linux software.: >> >> Section 3.1. "Downloaded packages and patches will need to be stored >> somewhere >> that is conveniently available throughout the entire build. A working >> directory >> is also required to unpack the sources and build them. $LFS/sources can be >> used >> both as the place to store the tarballs and patches and as a working >> directory." >> >> Section 5.3. General Compilation Instructions "For each package: Using the >> tar >> program, extract the package to be built. In Chapter 5, ensure you are the >> lfs >> user when extracting the package. Change to the directory created when the >> package was extracted." >> >> How do we clarify that? Repeat it for every package? If there is something >> unclear, I'll change it, but I can't read it for the users. > If you always have the same issue at the same point in the book, you might > come to the conclusion that it's a hard part, and only > (careful|smart|hard-working) people will understand. You could also conclude > that it's a confusing part (perhaps also hard), and while we need people to > be able to read, we can also provide a warning here that highlights the > relative importance of this statement. > > The point is, there is plenty of prose in the book. I could completely skip > every word of Section i, Section ii, Section iii, Section iv, and Section v, > and successfully build the book. In fact, I've done exactly that, and had no > issue. > > But, then, you want me to read Section vi and take it as gospel? Are you > starting to understand what I mean about signposts? There is nothing special > about the appearance of Section iv. Do you see how that might relate to > organization of the information, and not the content? > >> We did add to 5.4: "Go back and re-read the notes in the previous section. >> Understanding the notes labeled important will save you a lot of problems >> later." > And, while the unpacking instructions in 5.3 are indeed marked as > "important", do you also see that Sections 5.1 and 5.2 are completely > irrelevant to the explicit directions? You know how some text books often > have sections which are only meant to be read in an advanced course? Well, > 5.2 is exactly like that. But, why strew information all across the book? > Chapter 5 is the backbone to the entire thing. But it starts with a somewhat > irrelevant section (5.1), and an advanced section (5.2). Then, you want > people to know that the "Important" part of (5.3) is *actually* important? > > Here's something "Important" from 5.2: > > ==== > "Before continuing, be aware of the name of the working platform, often > referred to as the target triplet. A simple way to determine the name of the > target triplet is to run the config.guess script that comes with the source > for many packages. Unpack the Binutils sources and run the script: > ./config.guess and note the output. For example, for a modern 32-bit Intel > processor the output will likely be i686-pc-linux-gnu. > > "Also be aware of the name of the platform's dynamic linker, often referred > to as the dynamic loader (not to be confused with the standard linker ld that > is part of Binutils). The dynamic linker provided by Glibc finds and loads > the shared libraries needed by a program, prepares the program to run, and > then runs it. The name of the dynamic linker for a 32-bit Intel machine will > be ld-linux.so.2. A sure-fire way to determine the name of the dynamic linker > is to inspect a random binary from the host system by running: readelf > -l<name of binary> | grep interpreter and noting the output. The > authoritative reference covering all platforms is in the shlib-versions file > in the root of the Glibc source tree." > ==== > > I'd argue that it's not important at all. Maybe to someone who's taking LFS > and working on a derivative work. Or to someone who's messing about with the > toolchain. > > But, put simply: it's pretty hard to separate the complete irrelevance of > 5.2-"Important" from the absolute necessity of 5.3-"Important". This is an > issue of poorly structured book organization--not the information intended to > be conveyed in the book. > > Q > > > It seems that it still comes to the point where you have to know what you're doing in a Unix/Linux environment well before trying to make an LFS system.
You could always add that you should either have a web page open with console information/tutorial/help on it, a ready supply of swear words and phrases, or a large board with which to use as a calming device. Some people might need all of them. After all, no work gets done on a car or truck without copious amounts of swearing... Elly -- http://linuxfromscratch.org/mailman/listinfo/lfs-support FAQ: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/lfs/faq.html Unsubscribe: See the above information page
