> pretend I'm a really big guy (okay, this is hard, but pretend
> anyway...think, like..my father's size or something)
on the internet you can be anyone or anything :)
>
> you're selling glasses
cool!
>
> I'm selling lemonade
yum!
>
> if I agree to give you a cut rate on lemonade so you can sell it with your
> glasses as an incentive to your customers to buy *your* glasses over other
> vendors who don't have lemonade, then that's fair
yippie! Heck.. lets make this better.. why don't I give you a cut rate on
my glasses so that you have something to put your lemonade in.. however
you agree to only buy my glasses...
>
> if I threaten to pound you into the ground if you don't include my
> lemonade, that's not
umm ok
>
> now, understand that power does not just come with size. In this case, MS
> had the *only* lemonade,
they do? then why is it I'm not drinking MS lemonade at home? (ie. I'm not
using MS at home) infact I was raised on Apple-lemonade for many years..
hmmms
> everyone else was selling glasses with lemonade,
cool!
> and most of the people who were buying were convinced they were allergic
> to limes (okay, that's a bit contrived, but it's hard to make an analogy
> for this one at 11 at night :) ).
hmmms.. how about apples? I've lived off apple-juice for a longtime (macs)
> Hence, in order to survive, you *have*
> to sell MS lemonade.
Nah I'll just make a glass that will de-alergize from limes (ie. run a
diffrent system)
> Therefore, if you *have* to sell MS lemonade,
umm no.. no I don't
> and MS
> won't sell you the lemonade at the same rate as everyone else,
If I want to sell a product created by microsoft I should be obligated to
follow MS agreements since I did not create thier product.. They
created/baught/copied/etc.. it.. they own it..
> then you
> won't be profitable, and you will die (as a company).
Perhaps
> And if MS says 'we
> will charge you more than we charge anyone else if you give your customers
> the option of any other drink' you will not give your customers the option
> of other drinks with their glasses.
Again *I* would be making the choice to deal in MS products.. and in doing
so *I* have to deal with MS on thier terms...
>Hence, MS has just threatened to pound
> you into the ground (kill you) if you don't include their lemonade.
As I stated before to utilize MS product I would have to deal with thier
terms..
>
> got it yet?
apparently not..
>
> And this is just *one* issue -- the OEM one...MS has done stuff like this
> consistently. They have also renegged on contracts and other shady stuff
> (according to what I've been reading..I don't remember how much was
> actually used in the trial right now, but I do know that quite a bit of it
> was). Basically, they are the neighborhood bully and they can be because
> they are big. Either the government can stop it, or we can hope (and
> unlike most free-trade'ers, I don't believe this for a second, and no one
> ever has proven it right, though I'll grant no one has proven it
> completely wrong [proving negatives, again] ) that the market will
> straighten itself out and despite MSes strongarming someone will
> outmanuver them, or we can accept that MS (and any other company as
> ruthless as they ) will happily destroy anything in it's path on the way
> to a profit.
Microsoft created a product (well serval actualy).. and thusly should be
able to sell thier product as they see fit.. THEY own the product.. not
the government, not you, not me..
>
> The biggest problem I see with your brand of libertarianism (the whole
> anti-government/pro-capitalism schtick) is that it replaces the power of
> the state with the power of the corporations.
It provides rights and power to all.. and it's not "anti-government"..
rather a government that makes sense... gives individuals more
self-governing power
> At least the state is
> nominally under citizen control.
how much control do you have over your rights?
>We know the corporations aren't. The
> biggest problem I see with capitalism is that it values things over people
it values rights of people over governments
> (note capitalism != free enterprise, which is of the same genus, but a
> different, and imo much tamer species). This is bad when it happens on an
> individual basis. Do we have any reason to believe it would be good on a
> larger scale?
It more about what is right and ethical then a whimsical "good"...
>
> I don't think anyone here *wants* a great deal of government control. We
> certainly don't want things like the VA government looking into our
> bedrooms (says the walking felon :) ) (for those who don't know, Virginia
> has some really heinous laws about how, where and with whom you can have
> sex with ).
Thats why all us' virginians are virgins :)
> But, at the same time, we don't want our lives to be run by
> corps,
You life won't be run by a corperation... it will be yours to lead...
>either. Big brother can be business, even as it is often depicted
> as government. Increasingly the line between business and government in
> the U.S. gets blurred. I don't have many good answers on how to fix what
> we have now. I'll discuss the ones I do have with you when I have the time
> and energy. I do know that your 'solution' would just, long term, make the
> problem worse.
Which problem would it make worse?
> Also, I know that you don't see this as trolling, largely because you see
> it as a philosophical discussion about business and government and how
> much control the latter should have over the former, but this isn't a
> soapbox for your political views.
I didn't intend for this to be a soapbox.. it turns out that I seem to be
the only one with these views here (exausting I tell you).. at the request
of others i'm limiting my responses.. moo..
> This was a discussion about what *is*
> and what should be done *under the current rules*. Can we bring it back
> that way?
Sounds good to me :).. I think nothing should be done :)..
> At some point, after I've dug through the ethics a bit more, and after the
> WTO stuff is over, I'll be happy to talk to you about the whole economics
> thing a bit more. Right now, I'll be happy if I can think of an anti-WTO
> action by wednesday...
buddist use engulfiling self in flame to protest..
random though :) please don't take this action :)
>
> Vinnie
> --
> a safe place for all of the pieces that scatter
> learn to pretend there's more than love that matters - e saliers
> Obligatory pathetic website at http://george.he.net/~drachen
> GAT d? H- s---:+ !g !p au+ a- w+++ v++ C++++ UL++++ P+ L++ !3 E--- N+ K++
> !W M V po--- Y++ t+ 5 jx R G' !tv b+++ !D B e* u** h-- f+ r n---- z?
>
>
>
> ************
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org
>
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