On Thu, 21 Oct 1999, Neil ''Fred'' Picciotto wrote:
> ae wrote:
> >> Explaining sexism to a male is really difficult, though gay/bi men will
> >> sometimes understand if they are gorgeous.
>
> nils wrote:
> > Objection, Your Honours! Some males grasp sexism and some don't, it's just
> > the same as with females (though I think more females than males will
> > understand sexism because a female person more likely falls a victim to
> > it). Some people might consider your statement a rather sexist one, don't
> > you think? Just because a relevant share of males are chauvinist pigs,
> > this doesn't mean that this is true for all males.
>
> i think that explaining sexism to anyone is really difficult. of course,
> like anything, if the person you're explaining it to already understands
> (whether they're male or female), then it's a moot point. and as you say,
> more women understand sexism than men, though certainly there are women who
> do not. so i think it's a perfectly fair statement to say that explaining
> sexism to a male is really difficult. i also think that explaining racism
She said, that it were more difficult to explain sexism to a male person
than to a female (I think we can agree on that). This makes sense if a)
males are <PC>"intellectually less flexible"</PC> than females or b) she
experienced it that way (which wouldn't explain why you had to be gay/bi
and gorgeous at the same time to understand it). Being a little touchy I
assumed the worst immediately. Oh well.
> or homophobia is really difficult, and white people and straight people are
> by far the least likely to already understand those. so i don't think it's
> racist or homophobic to say that it's hard to explain racism to white
> people or homophobia to straight people.
I think you shouldn't draw the line between males and females or black and
white or gay and straight people. What matters is if someone is
open-minded or not. To exaggerate what you said, one could say "I don't
think it's sexist to say that it's hard to explain tech to females
(because they don't have much contact to it)". I don't say it, so you can
put your flamethrowers aside :-). What irritated me was the "will
sometimes understand if they are gorgeous" part -- only gay/bi, only
sometimes and only if they're gorgeous? This is either very fatalistic or
sexist, I assumed the latter for which I apologize.
> in any case, nils, you seem to be putting words into ae's mouth, which is a
> common thing to do when you disagree with someone else, but which in my
> mind only serves to make your argument less convincing. she never said
> that no males grasp sexism, and she certainly never said that all males are
> chauvinist pigs...
We all fall into our own pits here, I think (wrt putting words in someone
else's mouth): I said "a relevant share" and it was my opinion I
expressed, I didn't want to lay it in anyones mouth except my own. IMO 1
out of 10 or 20 (this is a random guess, no studies to back it, yadda)
_is_ a relevant share. If it weren't a relevant share, few people would be
upset.
Nils
--
Nils Philippsen / Vogelsangstrasse 115 / D-70197 Stuttgart / +49.711.6599405
[EMAIL PROTECTED] / [EMAIL PROTECTED] / [EMAIL PROTECTED]
The use of COBOL cripples the mind; its teaching should, therefore, be
regarded as a criminal offence. -- Edsger W. Dijkstra
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