"You’re just making it up as you go along." is a blatant lie, not a reality. Whatever C++ is or is not has no relevance to that.
-- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 ________________________________________ From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of David Crayford [dcrayf...@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, April 3, 2023 8:24 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Fascinating Interview with Steve Jobs [non-mainframe] - now Gary Kildall On 3/4/23 22:57, Seymour J Metz wrote: > ObDieJungfrauvonOrleans Believe that if you want' it wont change the reality. I know it's reality as I'm an experienced C++ programmer. Modern C++ is a thing. It's a term used to describe the C++ language from C++11 and newer, when the language was reinvented. https://github.com/isocpp/CppCoreGuidelines/blob/master/CppCoreGuidelines.md > > ________________________________________ > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU> on behalf of > David Crayford <dcrayf...@gmail.com> > Sent: Monday, April 3, 2023 10:38 AM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: Fascinating Interview with Steve Jobs [non-mainframe] - now Gary > Kildall > >> On 3 Apr 2023, at 10:03 pm, Seymour J Metz <sme...@gmu.edu> wrote: >> >> "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." >> >> Modernity is determined by the original design, not by the latest tweak C++ >> still has defects inherited from C; there are later languages that were >> designed ab initio, with no inherited defects. >> > What nonsense. You’re just making it up as you go along. > > > >> ________________________________________ >> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU> on behalf of >> David Crayford <dcrayf...@gmail.com> >> Sent: Monday, April 3, 2023 9:53 AM >> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU >> Subject: Re: Fascinating Interview with Steve Jobs [non-mainframe] - now >> Gary Kildall >> >> OK, I’ll rephrase. Modern C++ is one of the most modern programming >> languages in use today. C compatibility is in the past. C++20 introduced >> modules and reflection is already available in some compilers. >> >>> On 3 Apr 2023, at 9:46 pm, Seymour J Metz <sme...@gmu.edu> wrote: >>> >>> Contemporary and modern mean very different things, and [[C++]] mentions >>> neither. Stroustrup admitted that the design of C++was compromised by >>> compatibility concerns. >>> >>> ________________________________________ >>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU> on behalf of >>> David Crayford <dcrayf...@gmail.com> >>> Sent: Monday, April 3, 2023 7:58 AM >>> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU >>> Subject: Re: Fascinating Interview with Steve Jobs [non-mainframe] - now >>> Gary Kildall >>> >>>>> On 3/4/23 19:48, Seymour J Metz wrote: >>>> Why switch to C++ rather than to a more modern language? >>> It's widely acknowledged that C++20 is one of the most contemporary >>> programming languages being used today [1]. With its compiled approach >>> and low-level memory access, it's difficult to find a more robust >>> systems level programming language available on z/OS. Although Rust >>> could be seen as an improvement, it's important to note that IBM has >>> declared that they currently have no intentions of creating a Rustc >>> front-end for LLVM. >>> >>> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%2B%2B20 >>> >>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz >>>> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 >>>> >>>> ________________________________________ >>>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf >>>> of David Crayford [dcrayf...@gmail.com] >>>> Sent: Monday, April 3, 2023 7:38 AM >>>> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU >>>> Subject: Re: Fascinating Interview with Steve Jobs [non-mainframe] - now >>>> Gary Kildall >>>> >>>>> On 3/4/23 18:11, Seymour J Metz wrote: >>>>> I, OTOH, was appalled by C ever since it came out, much preferring PL/I. >>>> Certainly, the reasons for PL/I's failure are subject to debate, but >>>> there are several factors that may have contributed: >>>> >>>> 1. >>>> >>>> IBM was the primary stakeholder and developer of PL/I, which may >>>> have limited its adoption and prevented a more diverse community >>>> from contributing to its development. >>>> >>>> 2. >>>> >>>> IBM's focus on mainframe computing meant that PL/I was primarily >>>> used in that context, which may have limited its appeal outside of >>>> that niche. >>>> >>>> 3. >>>> >>>> FORTRAN was already well-established as a language for scientific >>>> computing, which may have made it difficult for PL/I to gain >>>> traction in that area. >>>> >>>> 4. >>>> >>>> Other languages, such as Ada, were designed with more open standards >>>> and free toolchains, which may have made them more attractive to >>>> developers than PL/I. >>>> >>>>> As for assembler, there are a lot of things that I can do in a single >>>>> statement that are awkward and verbose in C. Further, 95% of my >>>>> experience has been with macro assemblers, and C's macro language looks >>>>> like a joke. >>>> You can't optimize for hardware that hasn't been invented yet! Almost >>>> all C compiler can also compile C++. I recommend to people who whinge >>>> about C string handling to just switch to C++ and use std::string. The >>>> C++ gospel is ruled by the zero-overhead principle. In other words, you >>>> only pay for what you use. >>>> >>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz >>>>> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 >>>>> >>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf >>>>> of Tom Brennan [t...@tombrennansoftware.com] >>>>> Sent: Monday, April 3, 2023 1:03 AM >>>>> To:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU >>>>> Subject: Re: Fascinating Interview with Steve Jobs [non-mainframe] - now >>>>> Gary Kildall >>>>> >>>>> I actually always liked C, maybe because its original simplicity >>>>> reminded me of Assembler. I mean, what other language can you goof up a >>>>> length value or pointer and overwrite a bunch of other data areas by >>>>> mistake? Oh yeah, Assembler! >>>>> >>>>> On 4/2/2023 9:29 PM, Clem Clarke wrote: >>>>>> In my mind, Gary Kildall was a genius. Not only for his operating >>>>>> systems, but he also had PL/I running on PCs when everyone else said it >>>>>> was impossible. Now, we are stuck with "C". >>>>>> >>>>>> Also, Kildall had a GUI called GEM out years before Windows. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Unfortunately, the same man that effectively killed that OS/2 and forced >>>>>> us all to suffer through Win95 and Win98 etc stopped much innovation. >>>>>> >>>>>> When the IBM PC came out, I used DRI's PL/I when I converted the >>>>>> mainframe version of Jol to run on the PC. It did pretty much >>>>>> everything a System Programmer would need to do, far more simply than C >>>>>> (in my opinion). Unfortunately, it only ran in the 8086 small model and >>>>>> after Kildall's death with no possibility of a large or flat memory >>>>>> model, I felt I had no alternative but to convert the Jol code to C, >>>>>> which took many years. C's inefficient and dangerous string handling >>>>>> routines took ages to overcome. >>>>>> >>>>>> With regard to Kildall's flying when IBM went out, some old notes I >>>>>> looked at the other day place a slightly interpretation on it. Yes, >>>>>> apparently he was flying in the morning - delivering software to a >>>>>> customer. He apparently met with IBM in the afternoon but IBM wanted >>>>>> them to sign a nondisclosure agreement which was very one sided. And it >>>>>> seems that IBM wanted to pay Kildall a one time payment for his >>>>>> operating system, instead of the more usual royalty agreement, which was >>>>>> not seen as acceptable. >>>>>> >>>>>> And it seems Bill Gates' mother was either on IBM's board, or was was >>>>>> closely associated with someone who was. One comment from the short >>>>>> video is: >>>>>> ===== >>>>>> " What people seem to forget is that Bill Gate's mother worked on the >>>>>> board of IBM >>>>>> and Bill Gates Sr. was very well connected. (and was also on the board >>>>>> of Planned parenthood) >>>>>> "Bill Gates is also a Rockafeller's grandson.. >>>>>> "so everything was pretty much set up for him to succeed." >>>>>> ===== >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Who knows? Is there anyone in IBM who would know the truth? >>>>>> >>>>>> Here are three videos that go into it in greater depth. "The Man Who >>>>>> COULD Have Been Bill Gates [Gary Kildall]" >>>>>> 1. A 15 minute video:https://youtu.be/sDIK-C6dGks >>>>>> 2.https://archive.org/details/GaryKild >>>>>> 3. an hour and a half video: >>>>>> The comments by people who have seen them are very interesting. >>>>>> >>>>>> Clem Clarke >>>>>> http://secure-web.cisco.com/1sAAwxsVkmZe9HzPD7hFsNCcgsijjn2RmCx0BKUUQf-AIrg01DcFQTAAYnoSCOUZqQQNGyidMrKbu49HCjMcl-yxsQ0mqSwF1RMDIL7r7TuosqcBxnbhMgUB_ZeYPj0obtzOkaPJLl-cbSp7HqT5cy-cwChCPIZkZOFRHz26IPzW8mORUQ7qLZOQRz50Tgcw0XOg-BF9ggSAR0NxlwUrVNGnz_S6W5-Qd05mUKkzt5HO8Do1Yv30NUluwzUXGFM8wpVDDJQ-7Y_ug0qoNFb3CpQoBETp4eKffiIxNfS5PwmPy-Llug4sZLeJc5f2Lb0E9AIIG0gEXepwP1zr-I1cmyqvr86TVmkyZr9Ux99qWdPvAtBhguQ-Qr98qoyAOdPA1PMEtzmq3Oxv2HqmNZktdIJdLKvIG5WDANwBBoXYT6JilyKxpgvAsKzHJwovuFtRQ/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.Oscar-Jol.com >>>>>> >>>>>> Mike Schwab wrote: >>>>>>> The terms of the contract with ALL the computer customers was if he >>>>>>> dropped his price to one vendor, he would have to refund the >>>>>>> difference to all other vendors. And his 8086 was not ready yet. >>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Kildall >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wed, Mar 29, 2023 at 8:03 AM Jay Maynard<jaymayn...@gmail.com> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> I'm not so sure about Kildall...anyone who snubs a business meeting >>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>> IBM to go flying (a worthy endeavor in and of itself) isn't businessman >>>>>>>> enough to compete with Jobs and Gates. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Wed, Mar 29, 2023 at 3:05 AM Wayne Bickerdike<wayn...@gmail.com> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Very interesting if one-sided interview. He gives Steve Wozniak very >>>>>>>>> little >>>>>>>>> credit although Woz really was the inventor and Jobs the salesman in >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> partnership. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I read Sculley's autobiography many years ago (From Pepsi to Apple). >>>>>>>>> It >>>>>>>>> doesn't describe events quite the same way. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Nevertheless, good that it has surfaced at a time where nobody gets >>>>>>>>> sued >>>>>>>>> for defamation. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> After I left IBM in 1979 I wrote some applications on the Apple II. >>>>>>>>> It was >>>>>>>>> a challenge and from an electrical engineering point of view, it was >>>>>>>>> poor >>>>>>>>> with a weak power supply that ran the CPU, Floppy drives which >>>>>>>>> caused the >>>>>>>>> screen to wobble when operating. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> At the same time Apple were turning out the IIE, there was a host of >>>>>>>>> other >>>>>>>>> nicer systems, such as the Cromemco System 3 and Altos 8000 which >>>>>>>>> ran CP/M >>>>>>>>> and MP/M and had a more robust construction. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> It was a shame that Gary Kildall died so young, he would have been a >>>>>>>>> great >>>>>>>>> competitor for Jobs and Gates. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Wed, Mar 29, 2023 at 9:28 AM Charles Mills<charl...@mcn.org> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> A friend shared this with me and I thought it was just >>>>>>>>>> extraordinary. It >>>>>>>>>> is not "mainframe" but his comments on what happens when the >>>>>>>>>> marketeers >>>>>>>>> run >>>>>>>>>> a tech company will resonate with many of us. It’s a fairly long >>>>>>>>>> read. >>>>>>>>> It’s >>>>>>>>>> a transcript of a long interview done for a TV show – only a few >>>>>>>>>> minutes >>>>>>>>>> were actually used – by Bob Cringely, and thought to be lost. Steve >>>>>>>>>> Jobs >>>>>>>>>> was at the time (1995) running NeXT, which he was to sell to Apple a >>>>>>>>> month >>>>>>>>>> later. It is a fascinating read. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> https://secure-web.cisco.com/1Nfarr_Tjkl9iMJ8XHf7V5WnH2tKoSNvJiyDsjIoZXZYIQCEQM1NGE-t8Ic9GsKXTtorPPwXHO1g5-n9_n_xYcMqg6irvRfV0uv4IfvX2L54U2tSc5THrfwOJuyTExaqelP_Eq2bLO6IuVKaOdnu3V9GPBWp27KcTP9icS-RL7HXOs0Ytpy7BEdu4EYB1PK-FFLYi4sGRoe6-SF0E9SY4qLRvZUFo-6OK9PEgNTCOPmfDP31eCXIJ6h9ezHcA4gVQNebovm-8sKoNMe_NjZrbZ5VP5buXLzglf_sH0Ax4PKdAJ7FOxVDSHdShY6r62kSIrsbDV6-8C7CYEaSN5aeSk9ILdaKZv3jpIOVCeuYFDqxQobqJeSsJpFHoujdjNw40LMRD80TU5DqfsXUJgrG3xvg89yb6P9gvJZ13Pc0lW14/https%3A%2F%2Fsameerbajaj.com%2Fjobs%2F >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Charles >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>>>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >>>>>>>>>> send email tolists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO >>>>>>>>>> IBM-MAIN >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> Wayne V. Bickerdike >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >>>>>>>>> send email tolists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Jay Maynard >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >>>>>>>> send email tolists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN >>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >>>>>> send email tolists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >>>>> send email tolists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >>>>> send email tolists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >>>> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN >>>> >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >>>> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >>> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >>> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN ---------------------------------------------------------------------- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN ---------------------------------------------------------------------- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
