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________________________________________ From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU> on behalf of David Crayford <dcrayf...@gmail.com> Sent: Monday, April 3, 2023 10:38 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Fascinating Interview with Steve Jobs [non-mainframe] - now Gary Kildall > On 3 Apr 2023, at 10:03 pm, Seymour J Metz <sme...@gmu.edu> wrote: > > "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." > > Modernity is determined by the original design, not by the latest tweak C++ > still has defects inherited from C; there are later languages that were > designed ab initio, with no inherited defects. > What nonsense. You’re just making it up as you go along. > ________________________________________ > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU> on behalf of > David Crayford <dcrayf...@gmail.com> > Sent: Monday, April 3, 2023 9:53 AM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: Fascinating Interview with Steve Jobs [non-mainframe] - now Gary > Kildall > > OK, I’ll rephrase. Modern C++ is one of the most modern programming languages > in use today. C compatibility is in the past. C++20 introduced modules and > reflection is already available in some compilers. > >> On 3 Apr 2023, at 9:46 pm, Seymour J Metz <sme...@gmu.edu> wrote: >> >> Contemporary and modern mean very different things, and [[C++]] mentions >> neither. Stroustrup admitted that the design of C++was compromised by >> compatibility concerns. >> >> ________________________________________ >> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU> on behalf of >> David Crayford <dcrayf...@gmail.com> >> Sent: Monday, April 3, 2023 7:58 AM >> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU >> Subject: Re: Fascinating Interview with Steve Jobs [non-mainframe] - now >> Gary Kildall >> >>>> On 3/4/23 19:48, Seymour J Metz wrote: >>> Why switch to C++ rather than to a more modern language? >> >> It's widely acknowledged that C++20 is one of the most contemporary >> programming languages being used today [1]. With its compiled approach >> and low-level memory access, it's difficult to find a more robust >> systems level programming language available on z/OS. Although Rust >> could be seen as an improvement, it's important to note that IBM has >> declared that they currently have no intentions of creating a Rustc >> front-end for LLVM. >> >> [1] >> https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FC%252B%252B20&data=05%7C01%7Csmetz3%40gmu.edu%7Caec85eb9d9864fbbabd208db34511f74%7C9e857255df574c47a0c00546460380cb%7C0%7C0%7C638161295248501155%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=3pNB91zg8zKChNMGoqXe3NYq%2Fu9JWF2IY53uP%2F1k2AQ%3D&reserved=0 >> >> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz >>> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 >>> >>> ________________________________________ >>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of >>> David Crayford [dcrayf...@gmail.com] >>> Sent: Monday, April 3, 2023 7:38 AM >>> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU >>> Subject: Re: Fascinating Interview with Steve Jobs [non-mainframe] - now >>> Gary Kildall >>> >>>> On 3/4/23 18:11, Seymour J Metz wrote: >>>> I, OTOH, was appalled by C ever since it came out, much preferring PL/I. >>> Certainly, the reasons for PL/I's failure are subject to debate, but >>> there are several factors that may have contributed: >>> >>> 1. >>> >>> IBM was the primary stakeholder and developer of PL/I, which may >>> have limited its adoption and prevented a more diverse community >>> from contributing to its development. >>> >>> 2. >>> >>> IBM's focus on mainframe computing meant that PL/I was primarily >>> used in that context, which may have limited its appeal outside of >>> that niche. >>> >>> 3. >>> >>> FORTRAN was already well-established as a language for scientific >>> computing, which may have made it difficult for PL/I to gain >>> traction in that area. >>> >>> 4. >>> >>> Other languages, such as Ada, were designed with more open standards >>> and free toolchains, which may have made them more attractive to >>> developers than PL/I. >>> >>>> As for assembler, there are a lot of things that I can do in a single >>>> statement that are awkward and verbose in C. Further, 95% of my experience >>>> has been with macro assemblers, and C's macro language looks like a joke. >>> You can't optimize for hardware that hasn't been invented yet! Almost >>> all C compiler can also compile C++. I recommend to people who whinge >>> about C string handling to just switch to C++ and use std::string. The >>> C++ gospel is ruled by the zero-overhead principle. In other words, you >>> only pay for what you use. >>> >>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz >>>> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 >>>> >>>> ________________________________________ >>>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf >>>> of Tom Brennan [t...@tombrennansoftware.com] >>>> Sent: Monday, April 3, 2023 1:03 AM >>>> To:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU >>>> Subject: Re: Fascinating Interview with Steve Jobs [non-mainframe] - now >>>> Gary Kildall >>>> >>>> I actually always liked C, maybe because its original simplicity >>>> reminded me of Assembler. I mean, what other language can you goof up a >>>> length value or pointer and overwrite a bunch of other data areas by >>>> mistake? Oh yeah, Assembler! >>>> >>>> On 4/2/2023 9:29 PM, Clem Clarke wrote: >>>>> In my mind, Gary Kildall was a genius. Not only for his operating >>>>> systems, but he also had PL/I running on PCs when everyone else said it >>>>> was impossible. Now, we are stuck with "C". >>>>> >>>>> Also, Kildall had a GUI called GEM out years before Windows. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Unfortunately, the same man that effectively killed that OS/2 and forced >>>>> us all to suffer through Win95 and Win98 etc stopped much innovation. >>>>> >>>>> When the IBM PC came out, I used DRI's PL/I when I converted the >>>>> mainframe version of Jol to run on the PC. It did pretty much >>>>> everything a System Programmer would need to do, far more simply than C >>>>> (in my opinion). Unfortunately, it only ran in the 8086 small model and >>>>> after Kildall's death with no possibility of a large or flat memory >>>>> model, I felt I had no alternative but to convert the Jol code to C, >>>>> which took many years. C's inefficient and dangerous string handling >>>>> routines took ages to overcome. >>>>> >>>>> With regard to Kildall's flying when IBM went out, some old notes I >>>>> looked at the other day place a slightly interpretation on it. Yes, >>>>> apparently he was flying in the morning - delivering software to a >>>>> customer. He apparently met with IBM in the afternoon but IBM wanted >>>>> them to sign a nondisclosure agreement which was very one sided. And it >>>>> seems that IBM wanted to pay Kildall a one time payment for his >>>>> operating system, instead of the more usual royalty agreement, which was >>>>> not seen as acceptable. >>>>> >>>>> And it seems Bill Gates' mother was either on IBM's board, or was was >>>>> closely associated with someone who was. One comment from the short >>>>> video is: >>>>> ===== >>>>> " What people seem to forget is that Bill Gate's mother worked on the >>>>> board of IBM >>>>> and Bill Gates Sr. was very well connected. (and was also on the board >>>>> of Planned parenthood) >>>>> "Bill Gates is also a Rockafeller's grandson.. >>>>> "so everything was pretty much set up for him to succeed." >>>>> ===== >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Who knows? Is there anyone in IBM who would know the truth? >>>>> >>>>> Here are three videos that go into it in greater depth. "The Man Who >>>>> COULD Have Been Bill Gates [Gary Kildall]" >>>>> 1. A 15 minute >>>>> video:https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fyoutu.be%2FsDIK-C6dGks&data=05%7C01%7Csmetz3%40gmu.edu%7Caec85eb9d9864fbbabd208db34511f74%7C9e857255df574c47a0c00546460380cb%7C0%7C0%7C638161295248501155%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=CUm9IcuwObyWkkJsOAKFFVXqEsD8%2FqlU1%2B1hxl8FgJo%3D&reserved=0 >>>>> 2.https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Farchive.org%2Fdetails%2FGaryKild&data=05%7C01%7Csmetz3%40gmu.edu%7Caec85eb9d9864fbbabd208db34511f74%7C9e857255df574c47a0c00546460380cb%7C0%7C0%7C638161295248501155%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=2lVQNpEu7fL7NflOR9bZpoBVcGBGqUSfo2cKBbbe19s%3D&reserved=0 >>>>> 3. an hour and a half video: >>>>> The comments by people who have seen them are very interesting. >>>>> >>>>> Clem Clarke >>>>> http://secure-web.cisco.com/1sAAwxsVkmZe9HzPD7hFsNCcgsijjn2RmCx0BKUUQf-AIrg01DcFQTAAYnoSCOUZqQQNGyidMrKbu49HCjMcl-yxsQ0mqSwF1RMDIL7r7TuosqcBxnbhMgUB_ZeYPj0obtzOkaPJLl-cbSp7HqT5cy-cwChCPIZkZOFRHz26IPzW8mORUQ7qLZOQRz50Tgcw0XOg-BF9ggSAR0NxlwUrVNGnz_S6W5-Qd05mUKkzt5HO8Do1Yv30NUluwzUXGFM8wpVDDJQ-7Y_ug0qoNFb3CpQoBETp4eKffiIxNfS5PwmPy-Llug4sZLeJc5f2Lb0E9AIIG0gEXepwP1zr-I1cmyqvr86TVmkyZr9Ux99qWdPvAtBhguQ-Qr98qoyAOdPA1PMEtzmq3Oxv2HqmNZktdIJdLKvIG5WDANwBBoXYT6JilyKxpgvAsKzHJwovuFtRQ/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.Oscar-Jol.com >>>>> >>>>> Mike Schwab wrote: >>>>>> The terms of the contract with ALL the computer customers was if he >>>>>> dropped his price to one vendor, he would have to refund the >>>>>> difference to all other vendors. And his 8086 was not ready yet. >>>>>> https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FGary_Kildall&data=05%7C01%7Csmetz3%40gmu.edu%7Caec85eb9d9864fbbabd208db34511f74%7C9e857255df574c47a0c00546460380cb%7C0%7C0%7C638161295248501155%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=QTSvBt4gKcToGm2iM%2FQION0tR7WJ1%2FMKgDuPVmANfOw%3D&reserved=0 >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, Mar 29, 2023 at 8:03 AM Jay Maynard<jaymayn...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>> I'm not so sure about Kildall...anyone who snubs a business meeting with >>>>>>> IBM to go flying (a worthy endeavor in and of itself) isn't businessman >>>>>>> enough to compete with Jobs and Gates. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wed, Mar 29, 2023 at 3:05 AM Wayne Bickerdike<wayn...@gmail.com> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Very interesting if one-sided interview. He gives Steve Wozniak very >>>>>>>> little >>>>>>>> credit although Woz really was the inventor and Jobs the salesman in >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> partnership. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I read Sculley's autobiography many years ago (From Pepsi to Apple). It >>>>>>>> doesn't describe events quite the same way. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Nevertheless, good that it has surfaced at a time where nobody gets >>>>>>>> sued >>>>>>>> for defamation. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> After I left IBM in 1979 I wrote some applications on the Apple II. >>>>>>>> It was >>>>>>>> a challenge and from an electrical engineering point of view, it was >>>>>>>> poor >>>>>>>> with a weak power supply that ran the CPU, Floppy drives which >>>>>>>> caused the >>>>>>>> screen to wobble when operating. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> At the same time Apple were turning out the IIE, there was a host of >>>>>>>> other >>>>>>>> nicer systems, such as the Cromemco System 3 and Altos 8000 which >>>>>>>> ran CP/M >>>>>>>> and MP/M and had a more robust construction. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It was a shame that Gary Kildall died so young, he would have been a >>>>>>>> great >>>>>>>> competitor for Jobs and Gates. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Wed, Mar 29, 2023 at 9:28 AM Charles Mills<charl...@mcn.org> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> A friend shared this with me and I thought it was just >>>>>>>>> extraordinary. It >>>>>>>>> is not "mainframe" but his comments on what happens when the >>>>>>>>> marketeers >>>>>>>> run >>>>>>>>> a tech company will resonate with many of us. It’s a fairly long read. >>>>>>>> It’s >>>>>>>>> a transcript of a long interview done for a TV show – only a few >>>>>>>>> minutes >>>>>>>>> were actually used – by Bob Cringely, and thought to be lost. Steve >>>>>>>>> Jobs >>>>>>>>> was at the time (1995) running NeXT, which he was to sell to Apple a >>>>>>>> month >>>>>>>>> later. It is a fascinating read. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> https://secure-web.cisco.com/1Nfarr_Tjkl9iMJ8XHf7V5WnH2tKoSNvJiyDsjIoZXZYIQCEQM1NGE-t8Ic9GsKXTtorPPwXHO1g5-n9_n_xYcMqg6irvRfV0uv4IfvX2L54U2tSc5THrfwOJuyTExaqelP_Eq2bLO6IuVKaOdnu3V9GPBWp27KcTP9icS-RL7HXOs0Ytpy7BEdu4EYB1PK-FFLYi4sGRoe6-SF0E9SY4qLRvZUFo-6OK9PEgNTCOPmfDP31eCXIJ6h9ezHcA4gVQNebovm-8sKoNMe_NjZrbZ5VP5buXLzglf_sH0Ax4PKdAJ7FOxVDSHdShY6r62kSIrsbDV6-8C7CYEaSN5aeSk9ILdaKZv3jpIOVCeuYFDqxQobqJeSsJpFHoujdjNw40LMRD80TU5DqfsXUJgrG3xvg89yb6P9gvJZ13Pc0lW14/https%3A%2F%2Fsameerbajaj.com%2Fjobs%2F >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Charles >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >>>>>>>>> send email tolists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Wayne V. Bickerdike >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >>>>>>>> send email tolists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Jay Maynard >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >>>>>>> send email tolists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN >>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >>>>> send email tolists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN >>>>> >>>>> >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >>>> send email tolists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN >>>> >>>> >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >>>> send email tolists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >>> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >>> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN ---------------------------------------------------------------------- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN ---------------------------------------------------------------------- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
