"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."
Modernity is determined by the original design, not by the latest tweak C++ still has defects inherited from C; there are later languages that were designed ab initio, with no inherited defects. ________________________________________ From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU> on behalf of David Crayford <dcrayf...@gmail.com> Sent: Monday, April 3, 2023 9:53 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Fascinating Interview with Steve Jobs [non-mainframe] - now Gary Kildall OK, I’ll rephrase. Modern C++ is one of the most modern programming languages in use today. C compatibility is in the past. C++20 introduced modules and reflection is already available in some compilers. > On 3 Apr 2023, at 9:46 pm, Seymour J Metz <sme...@gmu.edu> wrote: > > Contemporary and modern mean very different things, and [[C++]] mentions > neither. Stroustrup admitted that the design of C++was compromised by > compatibility concerns. > > ________________________________________ > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU> on behalf of > David Crayford <dcrayf...@gmail.com> > Sent: Monday, April 3, 2023 7:58 AM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: Fascinating Interview with Steve Jobs [non-mainframe] - now Gary > Kildall > >> On 3/4/23 19:48, Seymour J Metz wrote: >> Why switch to C++ rather than to a more modern language? > > It's widely acknowledged that C++20 is one of the most contemporary > programming languages being used today [1]. With its compiled approach > and low-level memory access, it's difficult to find a more robust > systems level programming language available on z/OS. Although Rust > could be seen as an improvement, it's important to note that IBM has > declared that they currently have no intentions of creating a Rustc > front-end for LLVM. > > [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%2B%2B20 > > >> >> >> -- >> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz >> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 >> >> ________________________________________ >> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of >> David Crayford [dcrayf...@gmail.com] >> Sent: Monday, April 3, 2023 7:38 AM >> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU >> Subject: Re: Fascinating Interview with Steve Jobs [non-mainframe] - now >> Gary Kildall >> >>> On 3/4/23 18:11, Seymour J Metz wrote: >>> I, OTOH, was appalled by C ever since it came out, much preferring PL/I. >> Certainly, the reasons for PL/I's failure are subject to debate, but >> there are several factors that may have contributed: >> >> 1. >> >> IBM was the primary stakeholder and developer of PL/I, which may >> have limited its adoption and prevented a more diverse community >> from contributing to its development. >> >> 2. >> >> IBM's focus on mainframe computing meant that PL/I was primarily >> used in that context, which may have limited its appeal outside of >> that niche. >> >> 3. >> >> FORTRAN was already well-established as a language for scientific >> computing, which may have made it difficult for PL/I to gain >> traction in that area. >> >> 4. >> >> Other languages, such as Ada, were designed with more open standards >> and free toolchains, which may have made them more attractive to >> developers than PL/I. >> >>> As for assembler, there are a lot of things that I can do in a single >>> statement that are awkward and verbose in C. Further, 95% of my experience >>> has been with macro assemblers, and C's macro language looks like a joke. >> You can't optimize for hardware that hasn't been invented yet! Almost >> all C compiler can also compile C++. I recommend to people who whinge >> about C string handling to just switch to C++ and use std::string. The >> C++ gospel is ruled by the zero-overhead principle. In other words, you >> only pay for what you use. >> >> >>> >>> -- >>> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz >>> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 >>> >>> ________________________________________ >>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of >>> Tom Brennan [t...@tombrennansoftware.com] >>> Sent: Monday, April 3, 2023 1:03 AM >>> To:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU >>> Subject: Re: Fascinating Interview with Steve Jobs [non-mainframe] - now >>> Gary Kildall >>> >>> I actually always liked C, maybe because its original simplicity >>> reminded me of Assembler. I mean, what other language can you goof up a >>> length value or pointer and overwrite a bunch of other data areas by >>> mistake? Oh yeah, Assembler! >>> >>> On 4/2/2023 9:29 PM, Clem Clarke wrote: >>>> In my mind, Gary Kildall was a genius. Not only for his operating >>>> systems, but he also had PL/I running on PCs when everyone else said it >>>> was impossible. Now, we are stuck with "C". >>>> >>>> Also, Kildall had a GUI called GEM out years before Windows. >>>> >>>> >>>> Unfortunately, the same man that effectively killed that OS/2 and forced >>>> us all to suffer through Win95 and Win98 etc stopped much innovation. >>>> >>>> When the IBM PC came out, I used DRI's PL/I when I converted the >>>> mainframe version of Jol to run on the PC. It did pretty much >>>> everything a System Programmer would need to do, far more simply than C >>>> (in my opinion). Unfortunately, it only ran in the 8086 small model and >>>> after Kildall's death with no possibility of a large or flat memory >>>> model, I felt I had no alternative but to convert the Jol code to C, >>>> which took many years. C's inefficient and dangerous string handling >>>> routines took ages to overcome. >>>> >>>> With regard to Kildall's flying when IBM went out, some old notes I >>>> looked at the other day place a slightly interpretation on it. Yes, >>>> apparently he was flying in the morning - delivering software to a >>>> customer. He apparently met with IBM in the afternoon but IBM wanted >>>> them to sign a nondisclosure agreement which was very one sided. And it >>>> seems that IBM wanted to pay Kildall a one time payment for his >>>> operating system, instead of the more usual royalty agreement, which was >>>> not seen as acceptable. >>>> >>>> And it seems Bill Gates' mother was either on IBM's board, or was was >>>> closely associated with someone who was. One comment from the short >>>> video is: >>>> ===== >>>> " What people seem to forget is that Bill Gate's mother worked on the >>>> board of IBM >>>> and Bill Gates Sr. was very well connected. (and was also on the board >>>> of Planned parenthood) >>>> "Bill Gates is also a Rockafeller's grandson.. >>>> "so everything was pretty much set up for him to succeed." >>>> ===== >>>> >>>> >>>> Who knows? Is there anyone in IBM who would know the truth? >>>> >>>> Here are three videos that go into it in greater depth. "The Man Who >>>> COULD Have Been Bill Gates [Gary Kildall]" >>>> 1. A 15 minute video:https://youtu.be/sDIK-C6dGks >>>> 2.https://archive.org/details/GaryKild >>>> 3. an hour and a half video: >>>> The comments by people who have seen them are very interesting. >>>> >>>> Clem Clarke >>>> http://secure-web.cisco.com/1sAAwxsVkmZe9HzPD7hFsNCcgsijjn2RmCx0BKUUQf-AIrg01DcFQTAAYnoSCOUZqQQNGyidMrKbu49HCjMcl-yxsQ0mqSwF1RMDIL7r7TuosqcBxnbhMgUB_ZeYPj0obtzOkaPJLl-cbSp7HqT5cy-cwChCPIZkZOFRHz26IPzW8mORUQ7qLZOQRz50Tgcw0XOg-BF9ggSAR0NxlwUrVNGnz_S6W5-Qd05mUKkzt5HO8Do1Yv30NUluwzUXGFM8wpVDDJQ-7Y_ug0qoNFb3CpQoBETp4eKffiIxNfS5PwmPy-Llug4sZLeJc5f2Lb0E9AIIG0gEXepwP1zr-I1cmyqvr86TVmkyZr9Ux99qWdPvAtBhguQ-Qr98qoyAOdPA1PMEtzmq3Oxv2HqmNZktdIJdLKvIG5WDANwBBoXYT6JilyKxpgvAsKzHJwovuFtRQ/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.Oscar-Jol.com >>>> >>>> Mike Schwab wrote: >>>>> The terms of the contract with ALL the computer customers was if he >>>>> dropped his price to one vendor, he would have to refund the >>>>> difference to all other vendors. And his 8086 was not ready yet. >>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Kildall >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Mar 29, 2023 at 8:03 AM Jay Maynard<jaymayn...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> I'm not so sure about Kildall...anyone who snubs a business meeting with >>>>>> IBM to go flying (a worthy endeavor in and of itself) isn't businessman >>>>>> enough to compete with Jobs and Gates. >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, Mar 29, 2023 at 3:05 AM Wayne Bickerdike<wayn...@gmail.com> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Very interesting if one-sided interview. He gives Steve Wozniak very >>>>>>> little >>>>>>> credit although Woz really was the inventor and Jobs the salesman in >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> partnership. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I read Sculley's autobiography many years ago (From Pepsi to Apple). It >>>>>>> doesn't describe events quite the same way. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Nevertheless, good that it has surfaced at a time where nobody gets >>>>>>> sued >>>>>>> for defamation. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> After I left IBM in 1979 I wrote some applications on the Apple II. >>>>>>> It was >>>>>>> a challenge and from an electrical engineering point of view, it was >>>>>>> poor >>>>>>> with a weak power supply that ran the CPU, Floppy drives which >>>>>>> caused the >>>>>>> screen to wobble when operating. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> At the same time Apple were turning out the IIE, there was a host of >>>>>>> other >>>>>>> nicer systems, such as the Cromemco System 3 and Altos 8000 which >>>>>>> ran CP/M >>>>>>> and MP/M and had a more robust construction. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It was a shame that Gary Kildall died so young, he would have been a >>>>>>> great >>>>>>> competitor for Jobs and Gates. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wed, Mar 29, 2023 at 9:28 AM Charles Mills<charl...@mcn.org> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> A friend shared this with me and I thought it was just >>>>>>>> extraordinary. It >>>>>>>> is not "mainframe" but his comments on what happens when the >>>>>>>> marketeers >>>>>>> run >>>>>>>> a tech company will resonate with many of us. It’s a fairly long read. >>>>>>> It’s >>>>>>>> a transcript of a long interview done for a TV show – only a few >>>>>>>> minutes >>>>>>>> were actually used – by Bob Cringely, and thought to be lost. Steve >>>>>>>> Jobs >>>>>>>> was at the time (1995) running NeXT, which he was to sell to Apple a >>>>>>> month >>>>>>>> later. It is a fascinating read. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> https://secure-web.cisco.com/1Nfarr_Tjkl9iMJ8XHf7V5WnH2tKoSNvJiyDsjIoZXZYIQCEQM1NGE-t8Ic9GsKXTtorPPwXHO1g5-n9_n_xYcMqg6irvRfV0uv4IfvX2L54U2tSc5THrfwOJuyTExaqelP_Eq2bLO6IuVKaOdnu3V9GPBWp27KcTP9icS-RL7HXOs0Ytpy7BEdu4EYB1PK-FFLYi4sGRoe6-SF0E9SY4qLRvZUFo-6OK9PEgNTCOPmfDP31eCXIJ6h9ezHcA4gVQNebovm-8sKoNMe_NjZrbZ5VP5buXLzglf_sH0Ax4PKdAJ7FOxVDSHdShY6r62kSIrsbDV6-8C7CYEaSN5aeSk9ILdaKZv3jpIOVCeuYFDqxQobqJeSsJpFHoujdjNw40LMRD80TU5DqfsXUJgrG3xvg89yb6P9gvJZ13Pc0lW14/https%3A%2F%2Fsameerbajaj.com%2Fjobs%2F >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Charles >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >>>>>>>> send email tolists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Wayne V. Bickerdike >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >>>>>>> send email tolists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN >>>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Jay Maynard >>>>>> >>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >>>>>> send email tolists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >>>> send email tolists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN >>>> >>>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >>> send email tolists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN >>> >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >>> send email tolists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN ---------------------------------------------------------------------- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN ---------------------------------------------------------------------- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
