Contemporary and modern mean very different things, and [[C++]] mentions neither. Stroustrup admitted that the design of C++was compromised by compatibility concerns.
________________________________________ From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU> on behalf of David Crayford <dcrayf...@gmail.com> Sent: Monday, April 3, 2023 7:58 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Fascinating Interview with Steve Jobs [non-mainframe] - now Gary Kildall On 3/4/23 19:48, Seymour J Metz wrote: > Why switch to C++ rather than to a more modern language? It's widely acknowledged that C++20 is one of the most contemporary programming languages being used today [1]. With its compiled approach and low-level memory access, it's difficult to find a more robust systems level programming language available on z/OS. Although Rust could be seen as an improvement, it's important to note that IBM has declared that they currently have no intentions of creating a Rustc front-end for LLVM. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%2B%2B20 > > > -- > Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz > http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 > > ________________________________________ > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of > David Crayford [dcrayf...@gmail.com] > Sent: Monday, April 3, 2023 7:38 AM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: Fascinating Interview with Steve Jobs [non-mainframe] - now Gary > Kildall > > On 3/4/23 18:11, Seymour J Metz wrote: >> I, OTOH, was appalled by C ever since it came out, much preferring PL/I. > Certainly, the reasons for PL/I's failure are subject to debate, but > there are several factors that may have contributed: > > 1. > > IBM was the primary stakeholder and developer of PL/I, which may > have limited its adoption and prevented a more diverse community > from contributing to its development. > > 2. > > IBM's focus on mainframe computing meant that PL/I was primarily > used in that context, which may have limited its appeal outside of > that niche. > > 3. > > FORTRAN was already well-established as a language for scientific > computing, which may have made it difficult for PL/I to gain > traction in that area. > > 4. > > Other languages, such as Ada, were designed with more open standards > and free toolchains, which may have made them more attractive to > developers than PL/I. > >> As for assembler, there are a lot of things that I can do in a single >> statement that are awkward and verbose in C. Further, 95% of my experience >> has been with macro assemblers, and C's macro language looks like a joke. > You can't optimize for hardware that hasn't been invented yet! Almost > all C compiler can also compile C++. I recommend to people who whinge > about C string handling to just switch to C++ and use std::string. The > C++ gospel is ruled by the zero-overhead principle. In other words, you > only pay for what you use. > > >> >> -- >> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz >> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 >> >> ________________________________________ >> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of >> Tom Brennan [t...@tombrennansoftware.com] >> Sent: Monday, April 3, 2023 1:03 AM >> To:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU >> Subject: Re: Fascinating Interview with Steve Jobs [non-mainframe] - now >> Gary Kildall >> >> I actually always liked C, maybe because its original simplicity >> reminded me of Assembler. I mean, what other language can you goof up a >> length value or pointer and overwrite a bunch of other data areas by >> mistake? Oh yeah, Assembler! >> >> On 4/2/2023 9:29 PM, Clem Clarke wrote: >>> In my mind, Gary Kildall was a genius. Not only for his operating >>> systems, but he also had PL/I running on PCs when everyone else said it >>> was impossible. Now, we are stuck with "C". >>> >>> Also, Kildall had a GUI called GEM out years before Windows. >>> >>> >>> Unfortunately, the same man that effectively killed that OS/2 and forced >>> us all to suffer through Win95 and Win98 etc stopped much innovation. >>> >>> When the IBM PC came out, I used DRI's PL/I when I converted the >>> mainframe version of Jol to run on the PC. It did pretty much >>> everything a System Programmer would need to do, far more simply than C >>> (in my opinion). Unfortunately, it only ran in the 8086 small model and >>> after Kildall's death with no possibility of a large or flat memory >>> model, I felt I had no alternative but to convert the Jol code to C, >>> which took many years. C's inefficient and dangerous string handling >>> routines took ages to overcome. >>> >>> With regard to Kildall's flying when IBM went out, some old notes I >>> looked at the other day place a slightly interpretation on it. Yes, >>> apparently he was flying in the morning - delivering software to a >>> customer. He apparently met with IBM in the afternoon but IBM wanted >>> them to sign a nondisclosure agreement which was very one sided. And it >>> seems that IBM wanted to pay Kildall a one time payment for his >>> operating system, instead of the more usual royalty agreement, which was >>> not seen as acceptable. >>> >>> And it seems Bill Gates' mother was either on IBM's board, or was was >>> closely associated with someone who was. One comment from the short >>> video is: >>> ===== >>> " What people seem to forget is that Bill Gate's mother worked on the >>> board of IBM >>> and Bill Gates Sr. was very well connected. (and was also on the board >>> of Planned parenthood) >>> "Bill Gates is also a Rockafeller's grandson.. >>> "so everything was pretty much set up for him to succeed." >>> ===== >>> >>> >>> Who knows? Is there anyone in IBM who would know the truth? >>> >>> Here are three videos that go into it in greater depth. "The Man Who >>> COULD Have Been Bill Gates [Gary Kildall]" >>> 1. A 15 minute video:https://youtu.be/sDIK-C6dGks >>> 2.https://archive.org/details/GaryKild >>> 3. an hour and a half video: >>> The comments by people who have seen them are very interesting. >>> >>> Clem Clarke >>> http://secure-web.cisco.com/1sAAwxsVkmZe9HzPD7hFsNCcgsijjn2RmCx0BKUUQf-AIrg01DcFQTAAYnoSCOUZqQQNGyidMrKbu49HCjMcl-yxsQ0mqSwF1RMDIL7r7TuosqcBxnbhMgUB_ZeYPj0obtzOkaPJLl-cbSp7HqT5cy-cwChCPIZkZOFRHz26IPzW8mORUQ7qLZOQRz50Tgcw0XOg-BF9ggSAR0NxlwUrVNGnz_S6W5-Qd05mUKkzt5HO8Do1Yv30NUluwzUXGFM8wpVDDJQ-7Y_ug0qoNFb3CpQoBETp4eKffiIxNfS5PwmPy-Llug4sZLeJc5f2Lb0E9AIIG0gEXepwP1zr-I1cmyqvr86TVmkyZr9Ux99qWdPvAtBhguQ-Qr98qoyAOdPA1PMEtzmq3Oxv2HqmNZktdIJdLKvIG5WDANwBBoXYT6JilyKxpgvAsKzHJwovuFtRQ/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.Oscar-Jol.com >>> >>> Mike Schwab wrote: >>>> The terms of the contract with ALL the computer customers was if he >>>> dropped his price to one vendor, he would have to refund the >>>> difference to all other vendors. And his 8086 was not ready yet. >>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Kildall >>>> >>>> On Wed, Mar 29, 2023 at 8:03 AM Jay Maynard<jaymayn...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> I'm not so sure about Kildall...anyone who snubs a business meeting with >>>>> IBM to go flying (a worthy endeavor in and of itself) isn't businessman >>>>> enough to compete with Jobs and Gates. >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Mar 29, 2023 at 3:05 AM Wayne Bickerdike<wayn...@gmail.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Very interesting if one-sided interview. He gives Steve Wozniak very >>>>>> little >>>>>> credit although Woz really was the inventor and Jobs the salesman in >>>>>> the >>>>>> partnership. >>>>>> >>>>>> I read Sculley's autobiography many years ago (From Pepsi to Apple). It >>>>>> doesn't describe events quite the same way. >>>>>> >>>>>> Nevertheless, good that it has surfaced at a time where nobody gets >>>>>> sued >>>>>> for defamation. >>>>>> >>>>>> After I left IBM in 1979 I wrote some applications on the Apple II. >>>>>> It was >>>>>> a challenge and from an electrical engineering point of view, it was >>>>>> poor >>>>>> with a weak power supply that ran the CPU, Floppy drives which >>>>>> caused the >>>>>> screen to wobble when operating. >>>>>> >>>>>> At the same time Apple were turning out the IIE, there was a host of >>>>>> other >>>>>> nicer systems, such as the Cromemco System 3 and Altos 8000 which >>>>>> ran CP/M >>>>>> and MP/M and had a more robust construction. >>>>>> >>>>>> It was a shame that Gary Kildall died so young, he would have been a >>>>>> great >>>>>> competitor for Jobs and Gates. >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, Mar 29, 2023 at 9:28 AM Charles Mills<charl...@mcn.org> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> A friend shared this with me and I thought it was just >>>>>>> extraordinary. It >>>>>>> is not "mainframe" but his comments on what happens when the >>>>>>> marketeers >>>>>> run >>>>>>> a tech company will resonate with many of us. It’s a fairly long read. >>>>>> It’s >>>>>>> a transcript of a long interview done for a TV show – only a few >>>>>>> minutes >>>>>>> were actually used – by Bob Cringely, and thought to be lost. Steve >>>>>>> Jobs >>>>>>> was at the time (1995) running NeXT, which he was to sell to Apple a >>>>>> month >>>>>>> later. It is a fascinating read. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> https://secure-web.cisco.com/1Nfarr_Tjkl9iMJ8XHf7V5WnH2tKoSNvJiyDsjIoZXZYIQCEQM1NGE-t8Ic9GsKXTtorPPwXHO1g5-n9_n_xYcMqg6irvRfV0uv4IfvX2L54U2tSc5THrfwOJuyTExaqelP_Eq2bLO6IuVKaOdnu3V9GPBWp27KcTP9icS-RL7HXOs0Ytpy7BEdu4EYB1PK-FFLYi4sGRoe6-SF0E9SY4qLRvZUFo-6OK9PEgNTCOPmfDP31eCXIJ6h9ezHcA4gVQNebovm-8sKoNMe_NjZrbZ5VP5buXLzglf_sH0Ax4PKdAJ7FOxVDSHdShY6r62kSIrsbDV6-8C7CYEaSN5aeSk9ILdaKZv3jpIOVCeuYFDqxQobqJeSsJpFHoujdjNw40LMRD80TU5DqfsXUJgrG3xvg89yb6P9gvJZ13Pc0lW14/https%3A%2F%2Fsameerbajaj.com%2Fjobs%2F >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Charles >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >>>>>>> send email tolists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN >>>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Wayne V. Bickerdike >>>>>> >>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >>>>>> send email tolists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN >>>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Jay Maynard >>>>> >>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >>>>> send email tolists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >>> send email tolists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN >>> >>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >> send email tolists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >> send email tolists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN ---------------------------------------------------------------------- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN ---------------------------------------------------------------------- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
