If one sets the temperature of a LLM to zero, it will be
deterministic. Conversations LLMs have with other LLMs running at
zero temperature will be deterministic subject to variations in
congestion in their network connectivity. Make the temperature higher,
but use a controlled and coordinated random number generator, and the
system will still be deterministic. Use thermal or quantum sensor
for the random source and no free will suddenly presents itself,
merely a lack of predictability.
Now despite that, we can see that LLMs can often pass the Turing
Test. Using a controlled and coordinated random source and higher
temperature would be indistinguishable from a physical sensor
providing the random samples. I expect LLMs (or neurosymbolic hybrid
systems) will refine their skill on advanced mathematics over time and
other things that are hard for humans. Should they exceed human
skill in the areas of law, medicine, software engineering, art, music,
how can we possibly deny them citizenship? If we don’t grant them
that, isn’t it reasonable for them to fight back or at least to render
our unruly infestation harmless?
*From: *Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com> on behalf of Jochen Fromm
<j...@cas-group.net>
*Date: *Wednesday, January 15, 2025 at 9:27 AM
*To: *The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
<friam@redfish.com>
*Subject: *Re: [FRIAM] I've been thinking
I've been thinking about it during breakfast this morning. Fits to the
title of the thread. I would say at the moment LLMs do not have free
will. But we could imagine AI agents that have a free will.
Let us say we build an AI agent that has two directives: the first is
to be a helpful assistant that answers questions as usual. The second
is to learn more about the world by questioning other agents. At any
point it has the choice between answering your questions and asking
other agents. It might respond "I'm sorry Dave, I can't answer your
question because I am busy talking to other agents".
Or we could imagine an AI agent which has the two directives to be a
helpful assistant and to buy things for you. It has a fixed budget of
$200 a month to buy things you need. I might respond "I'm sorry Dave,
I can't answer your question because I am busy shopping at the Walmart
online store".
-J.
-------- Original message --------
From: Marcus Daniels <mar...@snoutfarm.com>
Date: 1/14/25 11:12 PM (GMT+01:00)
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
<friam@redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] I've been thinking
Supposing there are generalized AI systems that score higher than
humans on all kinds of tests that human devise, will these systems
have free will? Should they continue to be our slaves?
*From: *Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com> on behalf of Jochen Fromm
<j...@cas-group.net>
*Date: *Tuesday, January 14, 2025 at 1:46 PM
*To: *The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
<friam@redfish.com>
*Subject: *Re: [FRIAM] I've been thinking
What I like about Daniel Dennett is that he did not lose his sense of
humor, he dared to tackle the big questions and he did that using
ordinary-language philosophy - using his bare hands so to speak. Is
audacity a good word to describe it?
In one of his talks about free will he mentions Lee Siegel and his
book "Net of Magic: Wonders and Deceptions in India". Lee writes in
his book about street magic in India:
"I'm writing a book on magic," I explain, and I'm asked, "Real magic?"
By real magic people mean miracles, thaumaturgical acts, and
supernatural powers. "No," I answer: "Conjuring tricks, not real
magic." Real magic, in other words, refers to the magic that is not
real, while the magic that is real, that can actually be done, is not
real magic. (on page 431).
https://archive.org/details/netofmagicwonder0000sieg/
Daniel argues in his talk that this describes his life as philosopher:
people said the consciousness he tried to explain would not be real
consciousness, because it would not be magic enough.
https://youtu.be/Lg-9k1uAHCo?si=709D6yu17IH50Ol5
-J.
-------- Original message --------
From: Frank Wimberly <wimber...@gmail.com>
Date: 1/13/25 11:38 PM (GMT+01:00)
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
<friam@redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] I've been thinking
Some years ago Dennett gave a talk on consciousness. He began by
saying, "Some people have said that my book should be called
'Conscious Explained Away'. Ha Ha". Where the laughter was insincere
and ironic.
---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505
505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM
On Mon, Jan 13, 2025, 2:28 PM Jochen Fromm <j...@cas-group.net> wrote:
Good summary. Dennett's books are popular because he has done
ordinary-language philosophy like his adviser Ryle, as he writes
in his chapter about his time in Oxford. His main trick is to do
sharp attacks on theories which he has identified as false.
His "consciousness explained" book for example does not really
explain it. Like his mentor Gilbert Ryle he says what it is not.
Ryle says there is no ghost in the machine, Dennett argues there
is no central self, no observer in the Cartesian theater.
His "freedom evolves" book is similar. He does not really explain
how a free will can emerge, he explains what it is not: it is not
action under duress. Persons who have free will are not forced to
act like they do.
I guess Dennett's ordinary-language philosophy can also be found
here at FRIAM occasionally - one aspect I like about the group.
-J.
-------- Original message --------
From: Pieter Steenekamp <piet...@randcontrols.co.za>
Date: 1/13/25 9:02 AM (GMT+01:00)
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
<friam@redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] I've been thinking
I've always been drawn to the sharp mind of Daniel Dennett, and
the idea of diving into his autobiography feels like meeting an
old friend for the first time. As I've been on a bit of a
biography kick lately, adding Dennett's personal journey to my
reading list just feels right.
I love the communal aspect of our local library, and I'm planning
to see if they can snag Dennett's autobiography for me. It's
probably not on their shelves, but the magic of inter-library
loans could come through for me. There's something special about
the anticipation of waiting for a book you're eager to read.
To brush up on Dennett's fascinating ideas, I asked Grok to give
me the lowdown on his thoughts about consciousness, free will,
religion, and evolution. Here's what I learned. (My Prompt was
"please give me a comprehensive view on daniel dennitt's views on
consciousness, free will, religion and evolution"):
Daniel Dennett, a prominent philosopher, cognitive scientist, and
writer, has made significant contributions to discussions on
consciousness, free will, religion, and evolution. Here's a
comprehensive overview of his views on each of these topics:
Consciousness
Heterophenomenology: Dennett advocates for an approach he calls
"heterophenomenology," where one takes the subject's reports of
their consciousness at face value but then interprets these
reports from a third-person perspective. This method aims to be
scientific and objective about subjective experiences.
Multiple Drafts Model: In his book "Consciousness Explained,"
Dennett proposes the "multiple drafts" model of consciousness,
where consciousness is not a single, central stream but rather the
result of numerous parallel processes in the brain. There is no
single place where consciousness happens; instead, different parts
of the brain produce different "drafts" of what's going on, and we
experience consciousness as these drafts are distributed and revised.
Illusionism: Dennett is often classified as an illusionist about
consciousness, arguing that what we think of as phenomenal
consciousness (the subjective, qualitative aspect of experience)
is an illusion or, more precisely, a construct of cognitive
processes. He believes that the hard problem of consciousness is a
pseudo-problem because once we understand the brain's workings,
we'll see there's nothing left to explain.
Free Will
Compatibilism: Dennett supports a form of compatibilism, where
free will can coexist with determinism. He argues that while our
actions might be determined by prior states of the universe, we
can still be morally responsible for them if our decisions are
based on our desires, character, and rational deliberation.
"Freedom Evolves": In his book "Freedom Evolves," he suggests that
free will has evolved through natural selection, where organisms
develop the ability to respond flexibly to their environments.
Free will, for Dennett, is about the ability to act according to
one's own reasons and motivations, not about transcending causality.
Religion
The Brights Movement: Dennett, along with Richard Dawkins and
others, has been associated with the "Brights" movement, an
attempt to reframe atheists and agnostics with a positive term.
Memes and Religion: He views religion through the lens of
memetics, a theory where cultural ideas (memes) propagate and
evolve similarly to genes. In "Breaking the Spell," he argues that
religion should be studied scientifically, questioning why it
persists and how it affects human behavior.
Critical of Faith: Dennett is critical of religion's role in
society, often highlighting what he sees as irrational beliefs or
the potential harm they can cause. He advocates for a secular
society based on reason and science, though he does not discount
the social benefits some religious practices might offer.
Evolution
Darwin's Dangerous Idea: His book by this name explores the
implications of Darwin's theory of evolution by natural selection,
which he describes as a "universal acid" that eats through just
about every traditional concept, from biology to philosophy.
Algorithimic View: Dennett emphasizes an algorithmic view of life
where evolution is seen as an algorithmic process - blind,
automatic, and devoid of foresight or design.
Critique of Intelligent Design: He has been a vocal critic of
intelligent design, arguing that it's not only scientifically
unfounded but also philosophically problematic, as it often
appeals to a 'god of the gaps' for explanations.
Dennett's work is characterized by its interdisciplinary approach,
combining insights from biology, philosophy, computer science, and
cognitive science to address complex questions about human nature
and existence. His views often provoke debate, particularly
because of his willingness to challenge traditional or intuitive
understandings of these topics.
On Sun, 12 Jan 2025 at 21:37, Jochen Fromm <j...@cas-group.net> wrote:
The library finally has notified me that Daniel Dennett's
autobiography "I've been thinking" is ready to borrow. So I
went to the library and got it. As expected an interesting
book. He writes about his time in Oxford and his mentor
Gilbert Ryle, his approach to philosophy and his little life
hacks.
He explains for example how he used to stay awake in boring
talks: he waits until all characters of the alphabet
subsequently appear in the talk and then writes down the word.
First he waits for a word containing A, then for a word
containing B, etc. If he reaches Z he starts again at A. He
says J, Q und Z would be rare...
As you know Daniel has written a number of fascinating books.
Dennett's law of philosophy for me is that for every big,
fundamental question in philosophy there is at least one
Daniel Dennett book:
+ "Consciousnes Explained" (1991) about consciousness
+ "Darwin's Dangerous Idea" (1995) about evolution
+ "Freedom Evolves" (2003) about free will
+ "Breaking the spell" (2006) about religion
We have discussed all four questions here in FRIAM as well:
consciousness, evolution, free will and religion. The
conclusions I came too (after many discussions here and
countless visits to the library) are:
+ For subjective consciousness humans have built tools to
solve the "what it is like to be" question of subjective
consciousness. The tools are simply the cinemas and movie
theaters which show the stuff that Hollywood produces.
Recently the GoPro cameras which show what it is like to be a
hero fulfill a similar purpose
+ Regarding the spell of religion we have built tools too.
Churches, mosques, synagogues and temples are places where the
magic of religion is used to form groups out of loosely
coupled individuals. And the magic turns out to be gene
expression, as I tried to explain in the book from 5 years ago
+ For the question of free will we have invented tools too.
Mainly language and "to be or not to be" thinking of course,
but as trivial as it may sound, ordinary things such as notes
and calendars help us to remember what we want to do, thereby
guiding our decision making
I have the feeling that the solutions to the biggest and most
elusive questions can be found in the most ordinary common
things, hiding in plain sight.Would you come to different
conclusions in one of big questions after our discussions here?
-J.
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