Supposing there are generalized AI systems that score higher than humans on all kinds of tests that human devise, will these systems have free will? Should they continue to be our slaves?
From: Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com> on behalf of Jochen Fromm <j...@cas-group.net> Date: Tuesday, January 14, 2025 at 1:46 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] I've been thinking What I like about Daniel Dennett is that he did not lose his sense of humor, he dared to tackle the big questions and he did that using ordinary-language philosophy - using his bare hands so to speak. Is audacity a good word to describe it? In one of his talks about free will he mentions Lee Siegel and his book "Net of Magic: Wonders and Deceptions in India". Lee writes in his book about street magic in India: "I'm writing a book on magic," I explain, and I'm asked, "Real magic?" By real magic people mean miracles, thaumaturgical acts, and supernatural powers. "No," I answer: "Conjuring tricks, not real magic." Real magic, in other words, refers to the magic that is not real, while the magic that is real, that can actually be done, is not real magic. (on page 431). https://archive.org/details/netofmagicwonder0000sieg/ Daniel argues in his talk that this describes his life as philosopher: people said the consciousness he tried to explain would not be real consciousness, because it would not be magic enough. https://youtu.be/Lg-9k1uAHCo?si=709D6yu17IH50Ol5 -J. -------- Original message -------- From: Frank Wimberly <wimber...@gmail.com> Date: 1/13/25 11:38 PM (GMT+01:00) To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] I've been thinking Some years ago Dennett gave a talk on consciousness. He began by saying, "Some people have said that my book should be called 'Conscious Explained Away'. Ha Ha". Where the laughter was insincere and ironic. --- Frank C. Wimberly 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, Santa Fe, NM 87505 505 670-9918 Santa Fe, NM On Mon, Jan 13, 2025, 2:28 PM Jochen Fromm <j...@cas-group.net <mailto:j...@cas-group.net>> wrote: Good summary. Dennett's books are popular because he has done ordinary-language philosophy like his adviser Ryle, as he writes in his chapter about his time in Oxford. His main trick is to do sharp attacks on theories which he has identified as false. His "consciousness explained" book for example does not really explain it. Like his mentor Gilbert Ryle he says what it is not. Ryle says there is no ghost in the machine, Dennett argues there is no central self, no observer in the Cartesian theater. His "freedom evolves" book is similar. He does not really explain how a free will can emerge, he explains what it is not: it is not action under duress. Persons who have free will are not forced to act like they do. I guess Dennett's ordinary-language philosophy can also be found here at FRIAM occasionally - one aspect I like about the group. -J. -------- Original message -------- From: Pieter Steenekamp <piet...@randcontrols.co.za <mailto:piet...@randcontrols.co.za>> Date: 1/13/25 9:02 AM (GMT+01:00) To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com <mailto:friam@redfish.com>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] I've been thinking I've always been drawn to the sharp mind of Daniel Dennett, and the idea of diving into his autobiography feels like meeting an old friend for the first time. As I've been on a bit of a biography kick lately, adding Dennett's personal journey to my reading list just feels right. I love the communal aspect of our local library, and I'm planning to see if they can snag Dennett's autobiography for me. It's probably not on their shelves, but the magic of inter-library loans could come through for me. There's something special about the anticipation of waiting for a book you're eager to read. To brush up on Dennett's fascinating ideas, I asked Grok to give me the lowdown on his thoughts about consciousness, free will, religion, and evolution. Here's what I learned. (My Prompt was "please give me a comprehensive view on daniel dennitt's views on consciousness, free will, religion and evolution"): Daniel Dennett, a prominent philosopher, cognitive scientist, and writer, has made significant contributions to discussions on consciousness, free will, religion, and evolution. Here's a comprehensive overview of his views on each of these topics: Consciousness Heterophenomenology: Dennett advocates for an approach he calls "heterophenomenology," where one takes the subject's reports of their consciousness at face value but then interprets these reports from a third-person perspective. This method aims to be scientific and objective about subjective experiences. Multiple Drafts Model: In his book "Consciousness Explained," Dennett proposes the "multiple drafts" model of consciousness, where consciousness is not a single, central stream but rather the result of numerous parallel processes in the brain. There is no single place where consciousness happens; instead, different parts of the brain produce different "drafts" of what's going on, and we experience consciousness as these drafts are distributed and revised. Illusionism: Dennett is often classified as an illusionist about consciousness, arguing that what we think of as phenomenal consciousness (the subjective, qualitative aspect of experience) is an illusion or, more precisely, a construct of cognitive processes. He believes that the hard problem of consciousness is a pseudo-problem because once we understand the brain's workings, we'll see there's nothing left to explain. Free Will Compatibilism: Dennett supports a form of compatibilism, where free will can coexist with determinism. He argues that while our actions might be determined by prior states of the universe, we can still be morally responsible for them if our decisions are based on our desires, character, and rational deliberation. "Freedom Evolves": In his book "Freedom Evolves," he suggests that free will has evolved through natural selection, where organisms develop the ability to respond flexibly to their environments. Free will, for Dennett, is about the ability to act according to one's own reasons and motivations, not about transcending causality. Religion The Brights Movement: Dennett, along with Richard Dawkins and others, has been associated with the "Brights" movement, an attempt to reframe atheists and agnostics with a positive term. Memes and Religion: He views religion through the lens of memetics, a theory where cultural ideas (memes) propagate and evolve similarly to genes. In "Breaking the Spell," he argues that religion should be studied scientifically, questioning why it persists and how it affects human behavior. Critical of Faith: Dennett is critical of religion's role in society, often highlighting what he sees as irrational beliefs or the potential harm they can cause. He advocates for a secular society based on reason and science, though he does not discount the social benefits some religious practices might offer. Evolution Darwin's Dangerous Idea: His book by this name explores the implications of Darwin's theory of evolution by natural selection, which he describes as a "universal acid" that eats through just about every traditional concept, from biology to philosophy. Algorithimic View: Dennett emphasizes an algorithmic view of life where evolution is seen as an algorithmic process - blind, automatic, and devoid of foresight or design. Critique of Intelligent Design: He has been a vocal critic of intelligent design, arguing that it's not only scientifically unfounded but also philosophically problematic, as it often appeals to a 'god of the gaps' for explanations. Dennett's work is characterized by its interdisciplinary approach, combining insights from biology, philosophy, computer science, and cognitive science to address complex questions about human nature and existence. His views often provoke debate, particularly because of his willingness to challenge traditional or intuitive understandings of these topics. On Sun, 12 Jan 2025 at 21:37, Jochen Fromm <j...@cas-group.net <mailto:j...@cas-group.net>> wrote: The library finally has notified me that Daniel Dennett's autobiography "I've been thinking" is ready to borrow. So I went to the library and got it. As expected an interesting book. He writes about his time in Oxford and his mentor Gilbert Ryle, his approach to philosophy and his little life hacks. He explains for example how he used to stay awake in boring talks: he waits until all characters of the alphabet subsequently appear in the talk and then writes down the word. First he waits for a word containing A, then for a word containing B, etc. If he reaches Z he starts again at A. He says J, Q und Z would be rare... As you know Daniel has written a number of fascinating books. Dennett's law of philosophy for me is that for every big, fundamental question in philosophy there is at least one Daniel Dennett book: + "Consciousnes Explained" (1991) about consciousness + "Darwin's Dangerous Idea" (1995) about evolution + "Freedom Evolves" (2003) about free will + "Breaking the spell" (2006) about religion We have discussed all four questions here in FRIAM as well: consciousness, evolution, free will and religion. The conclusions I came too (after many discussions here and countless visits to the library) are: + For subjective consciousness humans have built tools to solve the "what it is like to be" question of subjective consciousness. The tools are simply the cinemas and movie theaters which show the stuff that Hollywood produces. Recently the GoPro cameras which show what it is like to be a hero fulfill a similar purpose + Regarding the spell of religion we have built tools too. Churches, mosques, synagogues and temples are places where the magic of religion is used to form groups out of loosely coupled individuals. And the magic turns out to be gene expression, as I tried to explain in the book from 5 years ago + For the question of free will we have invented tools too. Mainly language and "to be or not to be" thinking of course, but as trivial as it may sound, ordinary things such as notes and calendars help us to remember what we want to do, thereby guiding our decision making I have the feeling that the solutions to the biggest and most elusive questions can be found in the most ordinary common things, hiding in plain sight. Would you come to different conclusions in one of big questions after our discussions here? -J. .- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-.. 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