Maybe the interesting question is not how free will be can emerge through
language and thinking, but how we can keep it.Free will is the treasure island
that everybody wants to own. It is the treasure that everybody wants to take
away. Religious groups want to manipulate our free will to do whatever they
preach. Parties want to manipulate our free will to vote for them. Companies
want to manipulate our free will to buy their products.There is a whole 100
year old industry which has evolved to manipulate our free will: since Edward
Bernays wrote his book about propaganda and PR in 1928, the emerging
PR/advertising/marketing industry tries to influence our decisions in order to
buy more stuff (which we do not need).This is similar to the hard problem of
consciousness. There is a whole 100 year industry which has evolved to solve
the hard problem of consciousness: the film industry and all forms of show
business which earn money by showing us what it is like to be someone.
Interesting isn't it? The big problems of philosophy have led to big
industries.-J.
-------- Original message --------From: Marcus Daniels <mar...@snoutfarm.com>
Date: 1/14/25 6:31 AM (GMT+01:00) To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity
Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] I've been thinking
Natural language seems to be better at facilitating delegation and iteration.
Natural language is contradictory and underspecified, so it has a way of
facilitating groups of people, er, agents, doing stuff, even if they don’t know
or care what they are talking about. It may have even be evolutionarily
important for cooperation. I guess that’s a quaint notion in the age of MAGA.
Even Trump is multitudes on any given day.. From: Friam
<friam-boun...@redfish.com> on behalf of glen <geprope...@gmail.com>Date:
Monday, January 13, 2025 at 4:52 PMTo: friam@redfish.com
<friam@redfish.com>Subject: Re: [FRIAM] I've been thinkingThis post may
interest y'all:The Teaching of Writing in the AI
Erahttps://dailynous.com/2025/01/09/teaching-writing-in-the-ai-era/My response
to this question about teaching writing is to ask why one is writing. If
writing/reading is for *reasoning*, then the LLMs have taught us (I think) that
ordinary language is just not good for that. Maybe it's good for acting in the
world because we use common terms like "food" or "fire". But for inference,
formal languages are way better than informal ones. So who cares if a student
can write prose for reasoning? That's a category error we old/obsolete people
make. Kids interested in reasoning should learn logic/math and forget
writing.But of course some people enjoy reading door stop tomes. It's like
binge watching some stupid sitcom. They read just to empty their mind -
anti-reason. And as long as we have LLMs, we don't need chum writers like that
anymore. Just have ChatGPT write you a novel on demand. So no need to teach
students to write that sort of word-salad nonsense.On 1/13/25 13:28, Jochen
Fromm wrote:> Good summary. Dennett's books are popular because he has done
ordinary-language philosophy like his adviser Ryle, as he writes in his chapter
about his time in Oxford. His main trick is to do sharp attacks on theories
which he has identified as false.> > > His "consciousness explained" book for
example does not really explain it. Like his mentor Gilbert Ryle he says what
it is not. Ryle says there is no ghost in the machine, Dennett argues there is
no central self, no observer in the Cartesian theater.> > > His "freedom
evolves" book is similar. He does not really explain how a free will can
emerge, he explains what it is not: it is not action under duress. Persons who
have free will are not forced to act like they do.> > I guess Dennett's
ordinary-language philosophy can also be found here at FRIAM occasionally - one
aspect I like about the group.> > > -J.> > > > -------- Original message
--------> From: Pieter Steenekamp <piet...@randcontrols.co.za>> Date: 1/13/25
9:02 AM (GMT+01:00)> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
<friam@redfish.com>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] I've been thinking> > I've always
been drawn to the sharp mind of Daniel Dennett, and the idea of diving into his
autobiography feels like meeting an old friend for the first time. As I've been
on a bit of a biography kick lately, adding Dennett's personal journey to my
reading list just feels right.> > I love the communal aspect of our local
library, and I'm planning to see if they can snag Dennett's autobiography for
me. It's probably not on their shelves, but the magic of inter-library loans
could come through for me. There's something special about the anticipation of
waiting for a book you're eager to read.> > To brush up on Dennett's
fascinating ideas, I asked Grok to give me the lowdown on his thoughts about
consciousness, free will, religion, and evolution. Here's what I learned. (My
Prompt was "please give me a comprehensive view on daniel dennitt's views on
consciousness, free will, religion and evolution"):> > Daniel Dennett, a
prominent philosopher, cognitive scientist, and writer, has made significant
contributions to discussions on consciousness, free will, religion, and
evolution. Here's a comprehensive overview of his views on each of these
topics:> > Consciousness> Heterophenomenology: Dennett advocates for an
approach he calls "heterophenomenology," where one takes the subject's reports
of their consciousness at face value but then interprets these reports from a
third-person perspective. This method aims to be scientific and objective about
subjective experiences.> Multiple Drafts Model: In his book "Consciousness
Explained," Dennett proposes the "multiple drafts" model of consciousness,
where consciousness is not a single, central stream but rather the result of
numerous parallel processes in the brain. There is no single place where
consciousness happens; instead, different parts of the brain produce different
"drafts" of what's going on, and we experience consciousness as these drafts
are distributed and revised.> Illusionism: Dennett is often classified as an
illusionist about consciousness, arguing that what we think of as phenomenal
consciousness (the subjective, qualitative aspect of experience) is an illusion
or, more precisely, a construct of cognitive processes. He believes that the
hard problem of consciousness is a pseudo-problem because once we understand
the brain's workings, we'll see there's nothing left to explain.> > Free Will>
Compatibilism: Dennett supports a form of compatibilism, where free will can
coexist with determinism. He argues that while our actions might be determined
by prior states of the universe, we can still be morally responsible for them
if our decisions are based on our desires, character, and rational
deliberation.> "Freedom Evolves": In his book "Freedom Evolves," he suggests
that free will has evolved through natural selection, where organisms develop
the ability to respond flexibly to their environments. Free will, for Dennett,
is about the ability to act according to one's own reasons and motivations, not
about transcending causality.> > Religion> The Brights Movement: Dennett, along
with Richard Dawkins and others, has been associated with the "Brights"
movement, an attempt to reframe atheists and agnostics with a positive term.>
Memes and Religion: He views religion through the lens of memetics, a theory
where cultural ideas (memes) propagate and evolve similarly to genes. In
"Breaking the Spell," he argues that religion should be studied scientifically,
questioning why it persists and how it affects human behavior.> Critical of
Faith: Dennett is critical of religion's role in society, often highlighting
what he sees as irrational beliefs or the potential harm they can cause. He
advocates for a secular society based on reason and science, though he does not
discount the social benefits some religious practices might offer.> >
Evolution> Darwin's Dangerous Idea: His book by this name explores the
implications of Darwin's theory of evolution by natural selection, which he
describes as a "universal acid" that eats through just about every traditional
concept, from biology to philosophy.> Algorithimic View: Dennett emphasizes an
algorithmic view of life where evolution is seen as an algorithmic process -
blind, automatic, and devoid of foresight or design.> Critique of Intelligent
Design: He has been a vocal critic of intelligent design, arguing that it's not
only scientifically unfounded but also philosophically problematic, as it often
appeals to a 'god of the gaps' for explanations.> > Dennett's work is
characterized by its interdisciplinary approach, combining insights from
biology, philosophy, computer science, and cognitive science to address complex
questions about human nature and existence. His views often provoke debate,
particularly because of his willingness to challenge traditional or intuitive
understandings of these topics.> > On Sun, 12 Jan 2025 at 21:37, Jochen Fromm
<j...@cas-group.net <mailto:j...@cas-group.net>> wrote:> > The library
finally has notified me that Daniel Dennett's autobiography "I've been
thinking" is ready to borrow. So I went to the library and got it. As expected
an interesting book. He writes about his time in Oxford and his mentor Gilbert
Ryle, his approach to philosophy and his little life hacks.> > > He
explains for example how he used to stay awake in boring talks: he waits until
all characters of the alphabet subsequently appear in the talk and then writes
down the word. First he waits for a word containing A, then for a word
containing B, etc. If he reaches Z he starts again at A. He says J, Q und Z
would be rare...> > > As you know Daniel has written a number of
fascinating books. Dennett's law of philosophy for me is that for every big,
fundamental question in philosophy there is at least one Daniel Dennett book:>
> > + "Consciousnes Explained" (1991) about consciousness> > +
"Darwin's Dangerous Idea" (1995) about evolution> > + "Freedom Evolves"
(2003) about free will> > + "Breaking the spell" (2006) about religion> > >
We have discussed all four questions here in FRIAM as well: consciousness,
evolution, free will and religion. The conclusions I came too (after many
discussions here and countless visits to the library) are:> > > + For
subjective consciousness humans have built tools to solve the "what it is like
to be" question of subjective consciousness. The tools are simply the cinemas
and movie theaters which show the stuff that Hollywood produces. Recently the
GoPro cameras which show what it is like to be a hero fulfill a similar
purpose> > > + Regarding the spell of religion we have built tools too.
Churches, mosques, synagogues and temples are places where the magic of
religion is used to form groups out of loosely coupled individuals. And the
magic turns out to be gene expression, as I tried to explain in the book from 5
years ago> > > + For the question of free will we have invented tools too.
Mainly language and "to be or not to be" thinking of course, but as trivial as
it may sound, ordinary things such as notes and calendars help us to remember
what we want to do, thereby guiding our decision making> > > I have the
feeling that the solutions to the biggest and most elusive questions can be
found in the most ordinary common things, hiding in plain sight.Would you come
to different conclusions in one of big questions after our discussions here?>
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