You know, I don’t mind the phrase “above the law”. It may not be tailored to lower-level mechanistic arguing about one or another case, but it acknowledges a system context in which a society will operate under some kind of hierarchy of prerogatives.
I don’t normally think about law in such hierarchies, and do more often about truth. But I think similar arguments are appropriate for both, with certain modulations. What (re. power) do we want from truth in a society? We want truth to stand as a referee over all contesting claims. This is why authoritarians, but even more totalitarians, have as a first-line priority the killing of truth. Not just evading it or disregarding it, but publicly setting it on fire, to make the point that there will be _no_ referee over the exercise of power by whoever happens to be holding it. Arendt has some wonderful passages on the way the Nazi movement was, from before its takeover through its ending, a project of substituting fictitious worlds for the real world in the lives of their followers. This (now coming from me, not Arendt) is why the hopeful totalitarian doesn’t tell borderline lies or ambiguous lies; he tells extravagant, absurd lies, to make the point that any holdout hope for truth will be ground up and blown away in the movements movement. The fragility of a role for truth in a society is that a commitment to it has to be a kind of escrow. The society has to grant truth legitimacy and authority, and then the various members have to be confined within that commitment when their own interests would motivate them to escape it. Ulysses at the mast, or something like that. Rawls’s veil of ignorance. The question of what law is, and who it is answerable to, is different because it is entirely conventional, unlike truth which has a very individually-judgeable aspect. But will the society’s legitimated notion of “law” be a tool for use by a king? By specifically the God-Emporer (Mao or, increasingly, Xi) or Louix IV or Napoleon? Will it be a tool for use by the holder of an office (Putin? Trump “if you’re the president they (SCOTUS) let you do it”)? Or is law-the-system claimed or intended to have prerogatives above those of specific persons, or of offices w.r.t. their occupants, and if so, in what is that prerogative vested? The charateristically vague notion of a “democracy” supposes that there should be some abstract entity — the “demos” — in which the prerogative of law is vested. But since abstract entities don’t operate in the material world, what we have is some edifice of institutions etc. that is meant to suitably instantiate a “demos”. We can complain about all the ways an actual, realized system fails to instantiate a demos well, or is aimed at a wrong concept of one. But that complaint is different from the distinction that, as the Maoist government promulgated him as increasingly semi-divine, there was no concept of a “demos” at all that had prerogatives above him. I think we lose that relevant notion of hierarchy of prerogatives if we abandon the “above” in “above the law”. Lot of hair-splitting for no substance; I know… Eric > On Oct 15, 2024, at 12:22, glen <geprope...@gmail.com> wrote: > > I agree. We're dancing around the meaning of "above the law" and it's a > terrible phrase. But people use it. So you have to have some way to parse it > (again, based on the *rest* of whatever it is someone says). Hardline > positions like what Jochen and Dave are taking can help develop such parsing > strats, at least they help me. > > On a similar note, this article was very interesting to me because of both my > long-term interest in "mindreading" (which I'll now call "mentalizing", I > guess) and my more recent interest in replacing things like ontologies with > LLMs: > > Defining key concepts for mental state attribution > https://www.nature.com/articles/s44271-024-00077-6 > > > > On 10/15/24 09:11, steve smith wrote: >> I hope I'm not (just) muddying the water here, but I think "buffered from >> the remedies of law" might be better than "above the law"? I think it >> applies not to just the wealthy and powerful but to other ideosyncratic >> reasons like obscurity, anonymity, unpredictable-behaviour, etc... >> On 10/15/24 9:00 AM, glen wrote: >>> Well, OK. I agree with the gist. But rather than target Congress, the >>> Admin, and bureaucrats, I'd target wealthy people, whatever their day job >>> might be. There are people mostly above the law. Musk is one of them. But >>> more importantly, there's a couple of handfuls of companies that own the >>> world: Blackstone, KKR, Carlyle, Bain, etc. To boot, those companies "are >>> people", are effectively immortal, and can't seriously be punished for any >>> crime they might commit. >>> >>> And this point is definitely a systemic one. Even if every single member of >>> the entire government were biased against those who wield this power, the >>> system has too many weak points to hold them accountable. When faced with a >>> super villain like Musk, it takes a champion (at least one, but more often >>> a team) to counter-game the system (e.g. Whitehouse, Warren, Wyden, etc.). >>> And the champions usually eventually succumb to biology or corruption. >>> >>> On 10/14/24 15:52, Prof David West wrote: >>>> True, citing exceptions to specific laws does not indict the */system/*: >>>> /"We mean the entire legislative, executive, and judicial enterprise."/ >>>> >>>> However, the way the phrase,/"no one is above the law,"/ is popularly >>>> used, especially now and in the political context, it is not a systemic >>>> assertion, but a personal one: hold X accountable because no one is above >>>> the specific law that X ostensibly violated. _I will accept chastisement >>>> for being equally sloppy in usage_. >>>> >>>> Also, I would argue that the system has been corrupted to such a point >>>> that a whole class of people in particular roles are above the law >>>> systemically: >>>> - Congress abdicated its responsibility to enact laws, ceding it to >>>> bureaucrats. >>>> - Those same bureaucrats usurp the role of the judiciary by indicting and >>>> trying those who violate their laws (and they are laws, including criminal >>>> felony laws), crafting their own rules of evidence and procedure, and >>>> determining guilt or innocence with no recourse to the 'Systems' judiciary. >>>> - If you include the explosion in use of 'executive decree'; you might >>>> argue that a substantial part of the executive branch of government in the >>>> U.S. is 'above the law'. >>>> >>>> davew >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Oct 14, 2024, at 12:15 PM, glen wrote: >>>> > I think that was Jochen that said it, not Russ. But your refutation is >>>> > either a fallacy of ambiguity or composition. By "the rule of law", we >>>> > don't mean the rule of any particular law ... like a city statute >>>> > against walking your alligator down the street or whatever. We mean the >>>> > entire legislative, executive, and judicial enterprise. Of course, >>>> > particular slices of the population are exempt from some particular >>>> > law. E.g. London cabbies used to be allowed to urinate wherever without >>>> > regard to the typical laws governing such. That doesn't imply that >>>> > London cabbies are "above the law". I suppose you could say they're >>>> > above that particular set of laws. But "exempt" isn't synonymous with >>>> > "above", anyway. >>>> > >>>> > I don't think the SCOTUS ruling on immunity claims the President is >>>> > above the law, contrary to the implications of the left's rhetoric, >>>> > only that they're exempt from some/most/all laws when executing the >>>> > role of their office. It's bad. But it's not bad in the way the >>>> > rhetoric implies. >>>> > >>>> > On 10/14/24 09:27, Prof David West wrote: >>>> >> Sorry Russ, but /"Nobody should be above the law if the rule of law >>>> has any meaning in a democratic society,"/ is an absurd idea. >>>> >> >>>> >> Assuming the US is a democratic society (in some sense), I would defy >>>> you to find any existing law that does not have exceptions that place >>>> someone, in some role or in some cirsumstance, "above" that law. >>>> >> >>>> >> davew >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> On Mon, Oct 14, 2024, at 8:58 AM, John Kennison wrote: >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> >>> >>>> >>> *From:* Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com >>>> <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> on behalf of Marcus Daniels >>>> <mar...@snoutfarm.com <mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com>> >>>> >>> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 16, 2024 3:02 PM >>>> >>> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group >>>> <friam@redfish.com <mailto:friam@redfish.com>>; russ.abb...@gmail.com >>>> <mailto:russ.abb...@gmail.com> <russ.abb...@gmail.com >>>> <mailto:russ.abb...@gmail.com>> >>>> >>> *Subject:* [EXT] Re: [FRIAM] tolerance of intolerance >>>> >>> >>>> >>> I don’t think that’s fair. It depends on the opponent and what they >>>> represent both in terms of ideology and the sociological phenomenon they >>>> are a part of. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> *From:*Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com >>>> <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> *On Behalf Of *Jochen Fromm >>>> >>> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 16, 2024 11:52 AM >>>> >>> *To:* russ.abb...@gmail.com <mailto:russ.abb...@gmail.com>; The >>>> Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com >>>> <mailto:friam@redfish.com>> >>>> >>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] tolerance of intolerance >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> A president who murders his opponents would not be better than an >>>> evil dictator in an authoritarian state. Putin's opponents like Navalny, >>>> Litvinenko and Nemtsov were all brutally poisoned and/or murdered. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> But you are right, this possibility exists after the recent decision >>>> of the supreme court. It seems to be a result of democratic backsliding. >>>> Nobody should be above the law if the rule of law has any meaning in a >>>> democratic society. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> -J. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> -------- Original message -------- >>>> >>> >>>> >>> From: Russ Abbott <russ.abb...@gmail.com >>>> <mailto:russ.abb...@gmail.com> <mailto:russ.abb...@gmail.com >>>> <mailto:russ.abb...@gmail.com>>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Date: 7/16/24 7:48 PM (GMT+01:00) >>>> >>> >>>> >>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group >>>> <friam@redfish.com <mailto:friam@redfish.com> <mailto:friam@redfish.com >>>> <mailto:friam@redfish.com>>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] tolerance of intolerance >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Why has no one pointed out the possibility that if Trump wins, Biden >>>> could take advantage of his newly declared immunity and have him >>>> assassinated? >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> -- Russ >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> On Tue, Jul 16, 2024, 6:24 AM glen <geprope...@gmail.com >>>> <mailto:geprope...@gmail.com> <mailto:geprope...@gmail.com >>>> <mailto:geprope...@gmail.com>>> wrote: >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Yeah. It's one thing to wish it or want it. It's another to think >>>> more in Marcus' terms and come up with a more complex strategy not >>>> involving stupid 20 year olds and no violence at all. I still hold out >>>> hope for my own personal conspiracy theory. Biden becomes the nominee. >>>> After the convention fades, the Admnistration announces Biden has gone to >>>> the hospital for bone spur surgery. Kamala takes over temporarily and >>>> campaigns furiously for Biden-Harris. Biden is re-elected. Biden recovers >>>> and gets through the Oath (fingers crossed). Then he goes back to the >>>> hospital with some minor thing like a dizzy spell. Kamala takes over >>>> again. Biden's condition worsens. First Female President. Biden recovers >>>> and becomes America's Grandpa. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Come on Deep State. Make it happen. 8^D >>>> >>> >>>> >>> On 7/15/24 17:30, Russ Abbott wrote: >>>> >>> > I wonder what Scott's response would have been to those of us >>>> who, in response to the shooting, thought: better luck next time. >>>> >>> > On 7/15/24 17:28, Marcus Daniels wrote: >>>> >>> >> It ignores the option of doing things quietly and indirectly. >>>> >>> >> On 7/15/24 16:46, glen wrote: >>>> >>> >>> [Scott's] Prayer >>>> >>> >>> >>>> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fscottaaronson.blog%2f%3fp%3d8117&c=E,1,irEARj2UuX0io2vsvo5UtQltYddWunshQQtMQfJZHxfHRYf3FJxoInm0IYVm9IwI4psALvtsK1hXymeqyUC5R_tfW5jZF7zWWQQ1odUIr2o6avItdKxsAJw,&typo=1 >>>> >>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fscottaaronson.blog%2f%3fp%3d8117&c=E,1,QL0WRnoyblSkIf4AvUE9OJjbfulLIAmV4kaOMzv6lQXTwCmW2EkBdX41PHQpVDSu-p7sRh4gsqE26d1Giz5pL5Nj5av4laZQ11Mt76uPpQE,&typo=1> >>>> >>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fscottaaronson.blog%2f%3fp%3d8117&c=E,1,NLO_67atoq3F2A4fB5urAh8xb9NkFr6meKf_b2Ya-AZDIOD9qAQghy5M1IF_Q05hIzoBKb18k6r7vb4BiGopaOxkFFYtJyPv-EeoOVuU&typo=1 >>>> >>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fscottaaronson.blog%2f%3fp%3d8117&c=E,1,VkCRM_BeShuRcsrz7BIuFbLjt-HSBDroXWGmBOeDO6BmTy31h_kdbYCzyPKN_Rg0M2BUO3p_mBX6qdrZ3C3Q5zqIGvcu2DuESkkHbT0_HJ1D7RPe8Dij&typo=1>> >>>> >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> I'm currently surrounded by people who believe intolerance is >>>> properly not tolerated. Scott's message, here, seems extraordinary >>>> Christian, to me. (Real Christian, not the Christianism displayed in >>>> things like megachurches and whatnot cf >>>> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fraymondsmullyan.com%2fbooks%2fwho-knows%2f&c=E,1,mlWEnEdNzLv04QI10AIP0LMUOn93iXch1nMegLlQPAOq-cYBIqujJW4gdYUEuQTKpPUzp1ea879JC3t5SphDwTnV7qr07N3d5N_qWLqcAjurOEOKwUZoDA,,&typo=1 >>>> >>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fraymondsmullyan.com%2fbooks%2fwho-knows%2f&c=E,1,9VLze-Ya03T3kg-RkUd0H2MT8KzhjXM1_P3mWd2yhwzMisAO6YtkAVx_s8XT8vXCkAhdFAGojgJWrOEnJm3bqkoFhlRobx71sav3C5aNAQ,,&typo=1> >>>> >>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fraymondsmullyan.com%2fbooks%2fwho-knows%2f&c=E,1,kd1puIuKqRwYLdYLvOGXWmcK8yvoq-6V6UyCgEYrWEMcCgau9Jh9EDf4mId5w8MTz65ekcYWJKhQArb0V_-b-5JigQzIBkIaSINdHdVQGa-sdMe-lAQ,&typo=1 >>>> >>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fraymondsmullyan.com%2fbooks%2fwho-knows%2f&c=E,1,NurRTSqj5GjO0P5dvBQvndqnW4TBWCCpQjK5xVXcDuHkiaqJ1XOtzFeGSRgp5MO9z3vTP4RZWXFMT7rTd68npa8dNPeUXmmgquZsMXu1Aw,,&typo=1>>). >>>> This faith that "going high" will, in the long run, win out, seems naive >>>> to me. The temptation to "hoist the black flag and start slitting throats" >>>> isn't merely a thresholded reaction, it's an intuitive grasp of the >>>> iterated prisoner's dilemma, tit-for-tat style strategies, and Ashby's >>>> LoRV. But I'm open to changing my mind on that. Maybe I'm just too >>>> low-brow? >>>> >>> >>> > > -- > ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,_mNej5fxftAB_ChuN0sGhh32rzjhkdkXdFZiWy1yvuLVdhL9acWR3z9Q6CKQhO0CxC5SpK_tQCoKDrLq2xC6nnwJx7IxtlZY7Yg425N99NP2FcU,&typo=1 > to (un)subscribe > https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,M1_4_HZOoeNzCkfouVMnWg_61fuxIeZ8M_C4tpNkABbFw4enhjzr9bOG_AnVNz_EmKxCBF9bO_1B2IHEsm-7unRsCVi9CZ3ZW9WwZPf3L8skzlaYMw,,&typo=1 > FRIAM-COMIC > https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,SVd3bENpw0lEjlvXxfRm49FdrRAEdclMoKIc9KsqHp1UJ-ErefOmmmD9Sj9qeMaBkxXr89L13Up-33y5xzKTnMfLMsGRk5UZQESDoeSdxea8qg,,&typo=1 > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fpipermail%2ffriam_redfish.com%2f&c=E,1,kLjSgqH3BqdiiqjY2OQccfVEum8i6LvmDQJyq1y7hY2I50oyJA-OdTMV8KZ5oOFz49BmFgcXs6vfrRreu0THwCSZAP0aThTnJ9snIdH11rj2L_E,&typo=1 > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . 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