Yes, it was me who argued that nobody should be above the law in democratic
societies. Is it justified to cheat the cheater, to lie to the liar? From a
moral perspective I would say perhaps yes, because it would mean to beat the
opponent with his own weapons.But would it be justified for a government to
prevent the backsliding into a authoritarian system by using the same tools an
authoritarian system is built upon, namely violence and murder? I would say no.
For wannabe dictators and "strongmen" their weapon of choice is violence and
murder. As Ruth Ben-Ghiat describes in her book, Mussolini ordered the murder
of his opponent Giacomo Matteotti. Hitler murdered his opponents Ernst Röhm and
Kurt von Schleicher. Both events marked the beginning of their devastating
dictatorships. A president who orders the murder of his opponents is acting
like such a dictator in a dictatorship. Therefore I would say if a government
wants to prevent a democratic backsliding into a authoritarian system, it can
not use the same tools as an authoritarian system would use, because it would
already make the first step into authoritarianism, thereby becoming the system
it tries to prevent. -J.
-------- Original message --------From: glen <geprope...@gmail.com> Date:
10/14/24 7:16 PM (GMT+01:00) To: friam@redfish.com Subject: Re: [FRIAM] [EXT]
Re: tolerance of intolerance I think that was Jochen that said it, not Russ.
But your refutation is either a fallacy of ambiguity or composition. By "the
rule of law", we don't mean the rule of any particular law ... like a city
statute against walking your alligator down the street or whatever. We mean the
entire legislative, executive, and judicial enterprise. Of course, particular
slices of the population are exempt from some particular law. E.g. London
cabbies used to be allowed to urinate wherever without regard to the typical
laws governing such. That doesn't imply that London cabbies are "above the
law". I suppose you could say they're above that particular set of laws. But
"exempt" isn't synonymous with "above", anyway.I don't think the SCOTUS ruling
on immunity claims the President is above the law, contrary to the implications
of the left's rhetoric, only that they're exempt from some/most/all laws when
executing the role of their office. It's bad. But it's not bad in the way the
rhetoric implies.On 10/14/24 09:27, Prof David West wrote:> Sorry Russ, but
/"Nobody should be above the law if the rule of law has any meaning in a
democratic society,"/ is an absurd idea.> > Assuming the US is a democratic
society (in some sense), I would defy you to find any existing law that does
not have exceptions that place someone, in some role or in some cirsumstance,
"above" that law.> > davew> > > On Mon, Oct 14, 2024, at 8:58 AM, John Kennison
wrote:>>>>>>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------>>>>
*From:* Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com> on behalf of Marcus Daniels
<mar...@snoutfarm.com>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 16, 2024 3:02 PM>> *To:* The
Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com>;
russ.abb...@gmail.com <russ.abb...@gmail.com>>> *Subject:* [EXT] Re: [FRIAM]
tolerance of intolerance>>>> I don’t think that’s fair. It depends on the
opponent and what they represent both in terms of ideology and the sociological
phenomenon they are a part of.>>>>>> *From:*Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com>
*On Behalf Of *Jochen Fromm>> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 16, 2024 11:52 AM>> *To:*
russ.abb...@gmail.com; The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
<friam@redfish.com>>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] tolerance of intolerance>>>>>> A
president who murders his opponents would not be better than an evil dictator
in an authoritarian state. Putin's opponents like Navalny, Litvinenko and
Nemtsov were all brutally poisoned and/or murdered.>>>>>> But you are right,
this possibility exists after the recent decision of the supreme court. It
seems to be a result of democratic backsliding. Nobody should be above the law
if the rule of law has any meaning in a democratic society.>>>>>> -J.>>>>>>>>
-------- Original message -------->>>> From: Russ Abbott <russ.abb...@gmail.com
<mailto:russ.abb...@gmail.com>>>>>> Date: 7/16/24 7:48 PM (GMT+01:00)>>>> To:
The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com
<mailto:friam@redfish.com>>>>>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] tolerance of
intolerance>>>>>> Why has no one pointed out the possibility that if Trump
wins, Biden could take advantage of his newly declared immunity and have him
assassinated?>>>>>> -- Russ>>>>>> On Tue, Jul 16, 2024, 6:24 AM glen
<geprope...@gmail.com <mailto:geprope...@gmail.com>> wrote:>>>> Yeah. It's
one thing to wish it or want it. It's another to think more in Marcus' terms
and come up with a more complex strategy not involving stupid 20 year olds and
no violence at all. I still hold out hope for my own personal conspiracy
theory. Biden becomes the nominee. After the convention fades, the
Admnistration announces Biden has gone to the hospital for bone spur surgery.
Kamala takes over temporarily and campaigns furiously for Biden-Harris. Biden
is re-elected. Biden recovers and gets through the Oath (fingers crossed). Then
he goes back to the hospital with some minor thing like a dizzy spell. Kamala
takes over again. Biden's condition worsens. First Female President. Biden
recovers and becomes America's Grandpa.>>>> Come on Deep State. Make it
happen. 8^D>>>> On 7/15/24 17:30, Russ Abbott wrote:>> > I wonder what
Scott's response would have been to those of us who, in response to the
shooting, thought: better luck next time.>> > On 7/15/24 17:28, Marcus
Daniels wrote:>> >> It ignores the option of doing things quietly and
indirectly.>> >> On 7/15/24 16:46, glen wrote:>> >>> [Scott's] Prayer>>
>>> https://scottaaronson.blog/?p=8117
<https://scottaaronson.blog/?p=8117>>> >>>>> >>> I'm currently
surrounded by people who believe intolerance is properly not tolerated. Scott's
message, here, seems extraordinary Christian, to me. (Real Christian, not the
Christianism displayed in things like megachurches and whatnot cf
https://raymondsmullyan.com/books/who-knows/
<https://raymondsmullyan.com/books/who-knows/>). This faith that "going high"
will, in the long run, win out, seems naive to me. The temptation to "hoist the
black flag and start slitting throats" isn't merely a thresholded reaction,
it's an intuitive grasp of the iterated prisoner's dilemma, tit-for-tat style
strategies, and Ashby's LoRV. But I'm open to changing my mind on that. Maybe
I'm just too low-brow?>> >>>-- ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙
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