By the way, Nick, blackboard systems like Hearsay had levels and
causation among levels.
---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505
505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM
On Wed, Oct 20, 2021, 6:43 AM Frank Wimberly <wimber...@gmail.com>
wrote:
Now /that/ sounds like s blackboard system.
---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505
505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM
On Wed, Oct 20, 2021, 12:15 AM Jochen Fromm <j...@cas-group.net>
wrote:
Yes. Stigmergy always reminds me of ants looking for food
using pheromone trails. The classic swarm intelligence
example described in the book of Eric Bonabeau, Guy
Theraulaz and Marco Dorigo. In this case stigmergy can be
considered as a phenomenon where agents collectively use the
*environment as a shared memory *(the pheromone is stored in
the environment and it contains the memory where to find the
food source). Good point! I guess Russ will like this point
of view.
-J.
-------- Original message --------
From: ⛧ glen <geprope...@gmail.com>
Date: 10/20/21 07:16 (GMT+01:00)
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
<friam@redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] stygmergy, CA's, and [biological]
development
But it's a specific kind of memory: a) shared and b) abused
or misused. There should be a decoupling of the objectives
of the writer from the objectives of the reader. A good
example is a hermit crab using a soup can as its shell. Or
an urban kid mistaking modern bananas for "natural" food.
The "indirectness" in the definition obscures some nuance
that needs some attention.
On October 19, 2021 8:56:28 PM PDT, Marcus Daniels
<mar...@snoutfarm.com> wrote:
>I don’t actually get what is interesting about the term.
In computer science it would be a “blackboard system” or
simply “memory”.
>
>From: Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com> On Behalf Of
Nicholas Thompson
>Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2021 8:34 PM
>To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
<friam@redfish.com>
>Subject: Re: [FRIAM] stygmergy, CA's, and [biological]
development
>
>Ugh. I was making fun of myself. If everything is
stigmergy then the word has no interesting use.
>
> I am in danger of confusing it with niche construction.
The concept offers an alternative to Lamarckian mechanisms
for an organism to direct its own evolution. It's like the
inheritance of acquired environments. I think of it as
including such phenomena as squirrels and jays putting
acorns in the ground and thus providing an environment rich
with food for the winter and also, perhaps, in the very long
run, future oak trees. In some sense, the environment that
selects the organism is an environment that is selected by
the organism.
>
>I think the word does have a use, but only if we
distinguish between things left behind that positively
affect those that follow. To my surprise, the word is
apparently of recent origin having been specifically
invented to apply to ant pheromone trails in the fifties.
So, I suppose we might narrow it's meaning to objects left
to convey information and leave niche construction to apply
to objects that provide shelter, nutrition or other benefits
to the finder, eg., acorns, beaver dams,
>
>Thanks for pitching in, everybody. You have helped to
drive me out of my post travel lassitude.
>
>Nick
>
>On Tue, Oct 19, 2021 at 8:36 PM Frank Wimberly
<wimber...@gmail.com<mailto:wimber...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>Aren't we all immersed in stygmergy continuously while
we're alive and maybe before and after? This is a possible
interpretation of Nick's comment that everything is stygmergy.
>---
>Frank C. Wimberly
>140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
>Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
>505 670-9918
>Santa Fe, NM
>
>On Tue, Oct 19, 2021, 8:29 PM Marcus Daniels
<mar...@snoutfarm.com<mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com>> wrote:
>What I was driving at is that nature doesn’t give a damn
whether we categorize certain globs of stuff as “agents” or
“environment” or “transactions”. Stigmergy could be going
all the time in some subtle way we can’t discern because we
are looking at the pieces the wrong way.
>
>> On Oct 19, 2021, at 1:05 PM, uǝlƃ ☤>$
<geprope...@gmail.com<mailto:geprope...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> To be clear though, this requires a flexible
understanding of "agent" or whatever's doing the indirect
coordinating "through" the environment. I.e. "stygmergy"
isn't very well defined.
>>
>>> On 10/19/21 12:58 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>>> Game of Life has been shown to be universal
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
https://uwe-repository.worktribe.com/output/822575/turing-machine-universality-of-the-game-of-life
<https://uwe-repository.worktribe.com/output/822575/turing-machine-universality-of-the-game-of-life>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I would expect there are many “intermediate lambda” CAs
that behave this way, and so could implement any simulation
manifesting stigmergy.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* Friam
<friam-boun...@redfish.com<mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>>
*On Behalf Of *Jochen Fromm
>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 19, 2021 12:40 PM
>>> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
<friam@redfish.com<mailto:friam@redfish.com>>
>>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] stygmergy, CA's, and [biological]
development
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Interesting point. What do the others think?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I think if you start with an "X" at the top and consider
the X as your agent and the space to the left and right as
the environment then yes, we would have a kind of stygmergy
model for an agent which interacts in a two dimensional
world (one space and one time dimension). It is a rather
limited model though. I am not sure if it is useful :-/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -J.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -------- Original message --------
>>>
>>> From:
thompnicks...@gmail.com<mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com>
<mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com<mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com>>
>>>
>>> Date: 10/19/21 21:28 (GMT+01:00)
>>>
>>> To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group'
<friam@redfish.com<mailto:friam@redfish.com>
<mailto:friam@redfish.com<mailto:friam@redfish.com>>>
>>>
>>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] stygmergy, CA's, and [biological]
development
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks, Jochen, for answering.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Let me try to stretch the point and see if I can bring
you on board. In the first place, mimimally, stygmergy need
not involve sociality. So, If I go out on a hike and cut
blazes on trees on my way out so I can find my way home,
that is stygmergy in good standing, right?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Now let’s try a very simple ca where the rule is, if
nothing is written, write x; if x, white o beside; if o,
write x beside.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> X
>>>
>>> OXO
>>>
>>> XOXOX
>>>
>>> ETC.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Now, if we consider what is written at each stage as a
thing put out in the environment and the “rules” what the
organism brings to the table then each line is the joint
product of the previous line and the rule, hence stygmergy.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Am I stretching a point. Is everything not stygmergy?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> N
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Nick Thompson
>>>
>>> thompnicks...@gmail.com<mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com>
<mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com<mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com>>
>>>
>>> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
<https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* Friam
<friam-boun...@redfish.com<mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>
<mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com<mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>>>
*On Behalf Of *Jochen Fromm
>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 19, 2021 1:05 PM
>>> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
<friam@redfish.com<mailto:friam@redfish.com>
<mailto:friam@redfish.com<mailto:friam@redfish.com>>>
>>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] stygmergy, CA's, and [biological]
development
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> No, CAs are not a good model for stygmergy IMHO.
Stygmergy is as Wikipedia says a mechanism of indirect
coordination through the environment. For example: ants
which exploit a food source by following a pheromone trail.
Or termites which build a nest.
>>>
>>>
>>> In Cellular Automata there is no clear distinction
between agent and environment. They are just a grid of
states which evolves step by step by updating the cells with
a transition rule or function.
>>>
>>> The other type of collective intelligence besides
stygmergy is swarm formation. The individual member is
attracted to the group as a whole but repelled by other
individuals. You know the classic Boids rules which govern
fish swarms and bird flocks: "stay close to the group but
keep away from your neighbors".
>>>
>>> For more complex things you probably need a code. If the
individuals are smart, then a few rules are enough - holy
books have typically only a few MB. If the individuals are
lifeless molecules, then the code can be several GB (a human
genome has roughly 3 GB).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hope that helps a bit? You are lucky to have such a
smart grandson! I believe Frank has grandchildren too.
>>>
>>> Jochen
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -------- Original message --------
>>>
>>> From:
thompnicks...@gmail.com<mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com>
<mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com<mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com>>
>>>
>>> Date: 10/19/21 20:15 (GMT+01:00)
>>>
>>> To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group'
<friam@redfish.com<mailto:friam@redfish.com>
<mailto:friam@redfish.com<mailto:friam@redfish.com>>>
>>>
>>> Subject: [FRIAM] stygmergy, CA's, and [biological]
development
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Friends,
>>>
>>> Beware. As usual, I am trying to get you to think for me.
>>>
>>> My grandson is working on a regeneration project in his
freshman biolab (Planaria) and his sources and texts are
replete with cognitive language like “signal” and “memory”
etc., which implies that as the worm regenerates it is
influenced by a guiding idea of what it is producing. My
basic intuition, as you know, that this doesn’t happen in
human cognition, let alone worm regeneration and that
processes that produce a functional head from a slice of the
rear end of a flatworm have no idea what they are doing even
when they are done. Thus I imagine an advancing edge of
structure with each new bit influencing the rules by which
the next bit . Which, of course, puts me in mind both of
stygmergy and of Cellular Automata. So to my questions:
>>>
>>> Are Cellular Automata a good model for Stygmergy?
>>>
>>> Is Stygmergy a good model for organismic development?
>>>
>>> Why? Or Why not? Discuss.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Also, is there a good website, citizen-friendly, steep
learning curve, where my grandson and I could explore the
relation between developmental processes and ca’s. I looked
at NewLogo Library and did not find there any models of
regeneration, but may not have known where to look. I did
find THIS <https://distill.pub/2020/growing-ca/> which deep
down in the Table of Contents seemed to have three
regeneration models including one named “Planaria”, but I
could no see how to go further with it. If somebody could
have a look at it and give me some tips for how to use it, I
would be ever so grateful.
--
glen ⛧
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