Functional reactive programming is fine for this.. > On Oct 20, 2021, at 7:54 AM, Steve Smith <sasm...@swcp.com> wrote: > > And this seems to qualify as "side-effects programming" for CS purists. > Frowned upon in engineering perhaps but central to the fecundity of life > itself? > >> But it's a specific kind of memory: a) shared and b) abused or misused. >> There should be a decoupling of the objectives of the writer from the >> objectives of the reader. A good example is a hermit crab using a soup can >> as its shell. Or an urban kid mistaking modern bananas for "natural" food. >> >> The "indirectness" in the definition obscures some nuance that needs some >> attention. >> >>> On October 19, 2021 8:56:28 PM PDT, Marcus Daniels <mar...@snoutfarm.com> >>> wrote: >>> I don’t actually get what is interesting about the term. In computer >>> science it would be a “blackboard system” or simply “memory”. >>> >>> From: Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com> On Behalf Of Nicholas Thompson >>> Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2021 8:34 PM >>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com> >>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] stygmergy, CA's, and [biological] development >>> >>> Ugh. I was making fun of myself. If everything is stigmergy then the word >>> has no interesting use. >>> >>> I am in danger of confusing it with niche construction. The concept >>> offers an alternative to Lamarckian mechanisms for an organism to direct >>> its own evolution. It's like the inheritance of acquired environments. I >>> think of it as including such phenomena as squirrels and jays putting >>> acorns in the ground and thus providing an environment rich with food for >>> the winter and also, perhaps, in the very long run, future oak trees. In >>> some sense, the environment that selects the organism is an environment >>> that is selected by the organism. >>> >>> I think the word does have a use, but only if we distinguish between things >>> left behind that positively affect those that follow. To my surprise, the >>> word is apparently of recent origin having been specifically invented to >>> apply to ant pheromone trails in the fifties. So, I suppose we might >>> narrow it's meaning to objects left to convey information and leave niche >>> construction to apply to objects that provide shelter, nutrition or other >>> benefits to the finder, eg., acorns, beaver dams, >>> >>> Thanks for pitching in, everybody. You have helped to drive me out of my >>> post travel lassitude. >>> >>> Nick >>> >>>> On Tue, Oct 19, 2021 at 8:36 PM Frank Wimberly >>>> <wimber...@gmail.com<mailto:wimber...@gmail.com>> wrote: >>> Aren't we all immersed in stygmergy continuously while we're alive and >>> maybe before and after? This is a possible interpretation of Nick's >>> comment that everything is stygmergy. >>> --- >>> Frank C. Wimberly >>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, >>> Santa Fe, NM 87505 >>> >>> 505 670-9918 >>> Santa Fe, NM >>> >>>> On Tue, Oct 19, 2021, 8:29 PM Marcus Daniels >>>> <mar...@snoutfarm.com<mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com>> wrote: >>> What I was driving at is that nature doesn’t give a damn whether we >>> categorize certain globs of stuff as “agents” or “environment” or >>> “transactions”. Stigmergy could be going all the time in some subtle way >>> we can’t discern because we are looking at the pieces the wrong way. >>> >>>> On Oct 19, 2021, at 1:05 PM, uǝlƃ ☤>$ >>>> <geprope...@gmail.com<mailto:geprope...@gmail.com>> wrote: >>>> >>>> To be clear though, this requires a flexible understanding of "agent" or >>>> whatever's doing the indirect coordinating "through" the environment. I.e. >>>> "stygmergy" isn't very well defined. >>>> >>>>> On 10/19/21 12:58 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote: >>>>> Game of Life has been shown to be universal >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> https://uwe-repository.worktribe.com/output/822575/turing-machine-universality-of-the-game-of-life >>>>> >>>>> <https://uwe-repository.worktribe.com/output/822575/turing-machine-universality-of-the-game-of-life> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I would expect there are many “intermediate lambda” CAs that behave this >>>>> way, and so could implement any simulation manifesting stigmergy. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *From:* Friam >>>>> <friam-boun...@redfish.com<mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> *On Behalf >>>>> Of *Jochen Fromm >>>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 19, 2021 12:40 PM >>>>> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group >>>>> <friam@redfish.com<mailto:friam@redfish.com>> >>>>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] stygmergy, CA's, and [biological] development >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Interesting point. What do the others think? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I think if you start with an "X" at the top and consider the X as your >>>>> agent and the space to the left and right as the environment then yes, we >>>>> would have a kind of stygmergy model for an agent which interacts in a >>>>> two dimensional world (one space and one time dimension). It is a rather >>>>> limited model though. I am not sure if it is useful :-/ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -J. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -------- Original message -------- >>>>> >>>>> From: thompnicks...@gmail.com<mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> >>>>> <mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com<mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com>> >>>>> >>>>> Date: 10/19/21 21:28 (GMT+01:00) >>>>> >>>>> To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' >>>>> <friam@redfish.com<mailto:friam@redfish.com> >>>>> <mailto:friam@redfish.com<mailto:friam@redfish.com>>> >>>>> >>>>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] stygmergy, CA's, and [biological] development >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, Jochen, for answering. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Let me try to stretch the point and see if I can bring you on board. In >>>>> the first place, mimimally, stygmergy need not involve sociality. So, If >>>>> I go out on a hike and cut blazes on trees on my way out so I can find my >>>>> way home, that is stygmergy in good standing, right? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Now let’s try a very simple ca where the rule is, if nothing is written, >>>>> write x; if x, white o beside; if o, write x beside. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> X >>>>> >>>>> OXO >>>>> >>>>> XOXOX >>>>> >>>>> ETC. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Now, if we consider what is written at each stage as a thing put out in >>>>> the environment and the “rules” what the organism brings to the table >>>>> then each line is the joint product of the previous line and the rule, >>>>> hence stygmergy. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Am I stretching a point. Is everything not stygmergy? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> N >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Nick Thompson >>>>> >>>>> thompnicks...@gmail.com<mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> >>>>> <mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com<mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com>> >>>>> >>>>> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ >>>>> <https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *From:* Friam >>>>> <friam-boun...@redfish.com<mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> >>>>> <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com<mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>>> *On >>>>> Behalf Of *Jochen Fromm >>>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 19, 2021 1:05 PM >>>>> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group >>>>> <friam@redfish.com<mailto:friam@redfish.com> >>>>> <mailto:friam@redfish.com<mailto:friam@redfish.com>>> >>>>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] stygmergy, CA's, and [biological] development >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> No, CAs are not a good model for stygmergy IMHO. Stygmergy is as >>>>> Wikipedia says a mechanism of indirect coordination through the >>>>> environment. For example: ants which exploit a food source by following a >>>>> pheromone trail. Or termites which build a nest. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> In Cellular Automata there is no clear distinction between agent and >>>>> environment. They are just a grid of states which evolves step by step by >>>>> updating the cells with a transition rule or function. >>>>> >>>>> The other type of collective intelligence besides stygmergy is swarm >>>>> formation. The individual member is attracted to the group as a whole but >>>>> repelled by other individuals. You know the classic Boids rules which >>>>> govern fish swarms and bird flocks: "stay close to the group but keep >>>>> away from your neighbors". >>>>> >>>>> For more complex things you probably need a code. If the individuals are >>>>> smart, then a few rules are enough - holy books have typically only a few >>>>> MB. If the individuals are lifeless molecules, then the code can be >>>>> several GB (a human genome has roughly 3 GB). >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hope that helps a bit? You are lucky to have such a smart grandson! I >>>>> believe Frank has grandchildren too. >>>>> >>>>> Jochen >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -------- Original message -------- >>>>> >>>>> From: thompnicks...@gmail.com<mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> >>>>> <mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com<mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com>> >>>>> >>>>> Date: 10/19/21 20:15 (GMT+01:00) >>>>> >>>>> To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' >>>>> <friam@redfish.com<mailto:friam@redfish.com> >>>>> <mailto:friam@redfish.com<mailto:friam@redfish.com>>> >>>>> >>>>> Subject: [FRIAM] stygmergy, CA's, and [biological] development >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Friends, >>>>> >>>>> Beware. As usual, I am trying to get you to think for me. >>>>> >>>>> My grandson is working on a regeneration project in his freshman biolab >>>>> (Planaria) and his sources and texts are replete with cognitive language >>>>> like “signal” and “memory” etc., which implies that as the worm >>>>> regenerates it is influenced by a guiding idea of what it is producing. >>>>> My basic intuition, as you know, that this doesn’t happen in human >>>>> cognition, let alone worm regeneration and that processes that produce a >>>>> functional head from a slice of the rear end of a flatworm have no idea >>>>> what they are doing even when they are done. Thus I imagine an advancing >>>>> edge of structure with each new bit influencing the rules by which the >>>>> next bit . Which, of course, puts me in mind both of stygmergy and of >>>>> Cellular Automata. So to my questions: >>>>> >>>>> Are Cellular Automata a good model for Stygmergy? >>>>> >>>>> Is Stygmergy a good model for organismic development? >>>>> >>>>> Why? Or Why not? Discuss. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Also, is there a good website, citizen-friendly, steep learning curve, >>>>> where my grandson and I could explore the relation between developmental >>>>> processes and ca’s. I looked at NewLogo Library and did not find there >>>>> any models of regeneration, but may not have known where to look. I did >>>>> find THIS <https://distill.pub/2020/growing-ca/> which deep down in the >>>>> Table of Contents seemed to have three regeneration models including one >>>>> named “Planaria”, but I could no see how to go further with it. If >>>>> somebody could have a look at it and give me some tips for how to use it, >>>>> I would be ever so grateful. > > > .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: > 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
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