By the way, Nick, blackboard systems like Hearsay had levels and causation among levels.
--- Frank C. Wimberly 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, Santa Fe, NM 87505 505 670-9918 Santa Fe, NM On Wed, Oct 20, 2021, 6:43 AM Frank Wimberly <wimber...@gmail.com> wrote: > Now *that* sounds like s blackboard system. > > --- > Frank C. Wimberly > 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, > Santa Fe, NM 87505 > > 505 670-9918 > Santa Fe, NM > > On Wed, Oct 20, 2021, 12:15 AM Jochen Fromm <j...@cas-group.net> wrote: > >> Yes. Stigmergy always reminds me of ants looking for food using pheromone >> trails. The classic swarm intelligence example described in the book of >> Eric Bonabeau, Guy Theraulaz and Marco Dorigo. In this case stigmergy can >> be considered as a phenomenon where agents collectively use the *environment >> as a shared memory *(the pheromone is stored in the environment and it >> contains the memory where to find the food source). Good point! I guess >> Russ will like this point of view. >> >> -J. >> >> >> -------- Original message -------- >> From: ⛧ glen <geprope...@gmail.com> >> Date: 10/20/21 07:16 (GMT+01:00) >> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com> >> >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] stygmergy, CA's, and [biological] development >> >> But it's a specific kind of memory: a) shared and b) abused or misused. >> There should be a decoupling of the objectives of the writer from the >> objectives of the reader. A good example is a hermit crab using a soup can >> as its shell. Or an urban kid mistaking modern bananas for "natural" food. >> >> The "indirectness" in the definition obscures some nuance that needs some >> attention. >> >> On October 19, 2021 8:56:28 PM PDT, Marcus Daniels <mar...@snoutfarm.com> >> wrote: >> >I don’t actually get what is interesting about the term. In computer >> science it would be a “blackboard system” or simply “memory”. >> > >> >From: Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com> On Behalf Of Nicholas Thompson >> >Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2021 8:34 PM >> >To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group < >> friam@redfish.com> >> >Subject: Re: [FRIAM] stygmergy, CA's, and [biological] development >> > >> >Ugh. I was making fun of myself. If everything is stigmergy then the >> word has no interesting use. >> > >> > I am in danger of confusing it with niche construction. The concept >> offers an alternative to Lamarckian mechanisms for an organism to direct >> its own evolution. It's like the inheritance of acquired environments. I >> think of it as including such phenomena as squirrels and jays putting >> acorns in the ground and thus providing an environment rich with food for >> the winter and also, perhaps, in the very long run, future oak trees. In >> some sense, the environment that selects the organism is an environment >> that is selected by the organism. >> > >> >I think the word does have a use, but only if we distinguish between >> things left behind that positively affect those that follow. To my >> surprise, the word is apparently of recent origin having been specifically >> invented to apply to ant pheromone trails in the fifties. So, I suppose we >> might narrow it's meaning to objects left to convey information and leave >> niche construction to apply to objects that provide shelter, nutrition or >> other benefits to the finder, eg., acorns, beaver dams, >> > >> >Thanks for pitching in, everybody. You have helped to drive me out of >> my post travel lassitude. >> > >> >Nick >> > >> >On Tue, Oct 19, 2021 at 8:36 PM Frank Wimberly <wimber...@gmail.com >> <mailto:wimber...@gmail.com>> wrote: >> >Aren't we all immersed in stygmergy continuously while we're alive and >> maybe before and after? This is a possible interpretation of Nick's >> comment that everything is stygmergy. >> >--- >> >Frank C. Wimberly >> >140 Calle Ojo Feliz, >> >Santa Fe, NM 87505 >> > >> >505 670-9918 >> >Santa Fe, NM >> > >> >On Tue, Oct 19, 2021, 8:29 PM Marcus Daniels <mar...@snoutfarm.com >> <mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com>> wrote: >> >What I was driving at is that nature doesn’t give a damn whether we >> categorize certain globs of stuff as “agents” or “environment” or >> “transactions”. Stigmergy could be going all the time in some subtle way >> we can’t discern because we are looking at the pieces the wrong way. >> > >> >> On Oct 19, 2021, at 1:05 PM, uǝlƃ ☤>$ <geprope...@gmail.com<mailto: >> geprope...@gmail.com>> wrote: >> >> >> >> To be clear though, this requires a flexible understanding of "agent" >> or whatever's doing the indirect coordinating "through" the environment. >> I.e. "stygmergy" isn't very well defined. >> >> >> >>> On 10/19/21 12:58 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote: >> >>> Game of Life has been shown to be universal >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> https://uwe-repository.worktribe.com/output/822575/turing-machine-universality-of-the-game-of-life >> < >> https://uwe-repository.worktribe.com/output/822575/turing-machine-universality-of-the-game-of-life >> > >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> I would expect there are many “intermediate lambda” CAs that behave >> this way, and so could implement any simulation manifesting stigmergy. >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> *From:* Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com<mailto: >> friam-boun...@redfish.com>> *On Behalf Of *Jochen Fromm >> >>> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 19, 2021 12:40 PM >> >>> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group < >> friam@redfish.com<mailto:friam@redfish.com>> >> >>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] stygmergy, CA's, and [biological] development >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Interesting point. What do the others think? >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> I think if you start with an "X" at the top and consider the X as >> your agent and the space to the left and right as the environment then yes, >> we would have a kind of stygmergy model for an agent which interacts in a >> two dimensional world (one space and one time dimension). It is a rather >> limited model though. I am not sure if it is useful :-/ >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> -J. >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> -------- Original message -------- >> >>> >> >>> From: thompnicks...@gmail.com<mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> >> <mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com<mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com>> >> >>> >> >>> Date: 10/19/21 21:28 (GMT+01:00) >> >>> >> >>> To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' < >> friam@redfish.com<mailto:friam@redfish.com> <mailto:friam@redfish.com >> <mailto:friam@redfish.com>>> >> >>> >> >>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] stygmergy, CA's, and [biological] development >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Thanks, Jochen, for answering. >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Let me try to stretch the point and see if I can bring you on board. >> In the first place, mimimally, stygmergy need not involve sociality. So, >> If I go out on a hike and cut blazes on trees on my way out so I can find >> my way home, that is stygmergy in good standing, right? >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Now let’s try a very simple ca where the rule is, if nothing is >> written, write x; if x, white o beside; if o, write x beside. >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> X >> >>> >> >>> OXO >> >>> >> >>> XOXOX >> >>> >> >>> ETC. >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Now, if we consider what is written at each stage as a thing put out >> in the environment and the “rules” what the organism brings to the table >> then each line is the joint product of the previous line and the rule, >> hence stygmergy. >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Am I stretching a point. Is everything not stygmergy? >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> N >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Nick Thompson >> >>> >> >>> thompnicks...@gmail.com<mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> <mailto: >> thompnicks...@gmail.com<mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com>> >> >>> >> >>> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ < >> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> *From:* Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com<mailto: >> friam-boun...@redfish.com> <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com<mailto: >> friam-boun...@redfish.com>>> *On Behalf Of *Jochen Fromm >> >>> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 19, 2021 1:05 PM >> >>> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group < >> friam@redfish.com<mailto:friam@redfish.com> <mailto:friam@redfish.com >> <mailto:friam@redfish.com>>> >> >>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] stygmergy, CA's, and [biological] development >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> No, CAs are not a good model for stygmergy IMHO. Stygmergy is as >> Wikipedia says a mechanism of indirect coordination through the >> environment. For example: ants which exploit a food source by following a >> pheromone trail. Or termites which build a nest. >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> In Cellular Automata there is no clear distinction between agent and >> environment. They are just a grid of states which evolves step by step by >> updating the cells with a transition rule or function. >> >>> >> >>> The other type of collective intelligence besides stygmergy is swarm >> formation. The individual member is attracted to the group as a whole but >> repelled by other individuals. You know the classic Boids rules which >> govern fish swarms and bird flocks: "stay close to the group but keep away >> from your neighbors". >> >>> >> >>> For more complex things you probably need a code. If the individuals >> are smart, then a few rules are enough - holy books have typically only a >> few MB. If the individuals are lifeless molecules, then the code can be >> several GB (a human genome has roughly 3 GB). >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Hope that helps a bit? You are lucky to have such a smart grandson! I >> believe Frank has grandchildren too. >> >>> >> >>> Jochen >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> -------- Original message -------- >> >>> >> >>> From: thompnicks...@gmail.com<mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> >> <mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com<mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com>> >> >>> >> >>> Date: 10/19/21 20:15 (GMT+01:00) >> >>> >> >>> To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' < >> friam@redfish.com<mailto:friam@redfish.com> <mailto:friam@redfish.com >> <mailto:friam@redfish.com>>> >> >>> >> >>> Subject: [FRIAM] stygmergy, CA's, and [biological] development >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Friends, >> >>> >> >>> Beware. As usual, I am trying to get you to think for me. >> >>> >> >>> My grandson is working on a regeneration project in his freshman >> biolab (Planaria) and his sources and texts are replete with cognitive >> language like “signal” and “memory” etc., which implies that as the worm >> regenerates it is influenced by a guiding idea of what it is producing. My >> basic intuition, as you know, that this doesn’t happen in human cognition, >> let alone worm regeneration and that processes that produce a functional >> head from a slice of the rear end of a flatworm have no idea what they are >> doing even when they are done. Thus I imagine an advancing edge of >> structure with each new bit influencing the rules by which the next bit . >> Which, of course, puts me in mind both of stygmergy and of Cellular >> Automata. So to my questions: >> >>> >> >>> Are Cellular Automata a good model for Stygmergy? >> >>> >> >>> Is Stygmergy a good model for organismic development? >> >>> >> >>> Why? Or Why not? Discuss. >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Also, is there a good website, citizen-friendly, steep learning >> curve, where my grandson and I could explore the relation between >> developmental processes and ca’s. I looked at NewLogo Library and did not >> find there any models of regeneration, but may not have known where to >> look. I did find THIS <https://distill.pub/2020/growing-ca/> which >> deep down in the Table of Contents seemed to have three regeneration models >> including one named “Planaria”, but I could no see how to go further with >> it. If somebody could have a look at it and give me some tips for how to >> use it, I would be ever so grateful. >> >> -- >> glen ⛧ >> >> >> .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - . >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam >> un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >> archives: >> 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >> >> .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - . >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam >> un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >> archives: >> 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >> >
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