I love stigmergy! It is everywhere--even, or especially, this forum. Here's an extended abstract <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1UKVY284O3Tq-ssvi6xmUzIjubNsxwKIz/edit?usp=sharing&ouid=114865618166480775623&rtpof=true&sd=true> that I submitted to a conference. (It was reviewed positively but rejected anyway.)
-- Russ Abbott Professor Emeritus, Computer Science California State University, Los Angeles On Tue, Oct 19, 2021 at 10:34 PM Marcus Daniels <mar...@snoutfarm.com> wrote: > Some people find it surprising this could occur in silico? Another old > example is https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Core_War > > On Oct 19, 2021, at 10:15 PM, ⛧ glen <geprope...@gmail.com> wrote: > > But it's a specific kind of memory: a) shared and b) abused or misused. > There should be a decoupling of the objectives of the writer from the > objectives of the reader. A good example is a hermit crab using a soup can > as its shell. Or an urban kid mistaking modern bananas for "natural" food. > > The "indirectness" in the definition obscures some nuance that needs some > attention. > > On October 19, 2021 8:56:28 PM PDT, Marcus Daniels <mar...@snoutfarm.com> > wrote: > > I don’t actually get what is interesting about the term. In computer > science it would be a “blackboard system” or simply “memory”. > > > From: Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com> On Behalf Of Nicholas Thompson > > Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2021 8:34 PM > > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com> > > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] stygmergy, CA's, and [biological] development > > > Ugh. I was making fun of myself. If everything is stigmergy then the > word has no interesting use. > > > I am in danger of confusing it with niche construction. The concept > offers an alternative to Lamarckian mechanisms for an organism to direct > its own evolution. It's like the inheritance of acquired environments. I > think of it as including such phenomena as squirrels and jays putting > acorns in the ground and thus providing an environment rich with food for > the winter and also, perhaps, in the very long run, future oak trees. In > some sense, the environment that selects the organism is an environment > that is selected by the organism. > > > I think the word does have a use, but only if we distinguish between > things left behind that positively affect those that follow. To my > surprise, the word is apparently of recent origin having been specifically > invented to apply to ant pheromone trails in the fifties. So, I suppose we > might narrow it's meaning to objects left to convey information and leave > niche construction to apply to objects that provide shelter, nutrition or > other benefits to the finder, eg., acorns, beaver dams, > > > Thanks for pitching in, everybody. You have helped to drive me out of my > post travel lassitude. > > > Nick > > > On Tue, Oct 19, 2021 at 8:36 PM Frank Wimberly <wimber...@gmail.com > <mailto:wimber...@gmail.com>> wrote: > > Aren't we all immersed in stygmergy continuously while we're alive and > maybe before and after? This is a possible interpretation of Nick's > comment that everything is stygmergy. > > --- > > Frank C. Wimberly > > 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, > > Santa Fe, NM 87505 > > > 505 670-9918 > > Santa Fe, NM > > > On Tue, Oct 19, 2021, 8:29 PM Marcus Daniels <mar...@snoutfarm.com<mailto: > mar...@snoutfarm.com>> wrote: > > What I was driving at is that nature doesn’t give a damn whether we > categorize certain globs of stuff as “agents” or “environment” or > “transactions”. Stigmergy could be going all the time in some subtle way > we can’t discern because we are looking at the pieces the wrong way. > > > On Oct 19, 2021, at 1:05 PM, uǝlƃ ☤>$ <geprope...@gmail.com<mailto: > geprope...@gmail.com>> wrote: > > > To be clear though, this requires a flexible understanding of "agent" or > whatever's doing the indirect coordinating "through" the environment. I.e. > "stygmergy" isn't very well defined. > > > On 10/19/21 12:58 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > > Game of Life has been shown to be universal > > > > > > https://uwe-repository.worktribe.com/output/822575/turing-machine-universality-of-the-game-of-life > < > https://uwe-repository.worktribe.com/output/822575/turing-machine-universality-of-the-game-of-life > > > > > > > I would expect there are many “intermediate lambda” CAs that behave this > way, and so could implement any simulation manifesting stigmergy. > > > > > *From:* Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com<mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> > *On Behalf Of *Jochen Fromm > > *Sent:* Tuesday, October 19, 2021 12:40 PM > > *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group < > friam@redfish.com<mailto:friam@redfish.com>> > > *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] stygmergy, CA's, and [biological] development > > > > > Interesting point. What do the others think? > > > > > I think if you start with an "X" at the top and consider the X as your > agent and the space to the left and right as the environment then yes, we > would have a kind of stygmergy model for an agent which interacts in a two > dimensional world (one space and one time dimension). It is a rather > limited model though. I am not sure if it is useful :-/ > > > > > -J. > > > > > > > -------- Original message -------- > > > From: thompnicks...@gmail.com<mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> <mailto: > thompnicks...@gmail.com<mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com>> > > > Date: 10/19/21 21:28 (GMT+01:00) > > > To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' < > friam@redfish.com<mailto:friam@redfish.com> <mailto:friam@redfish.com > <mailto:friam@redfish.com>>> > > > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] stygmergy, CA's, and [biological] development > > > > > Thanks, Jochen, for answering. > > > > > Let me try to stretch the point and see if I can bring you on board. In > the first place, mimimally, stygmergy need not involve sociality. So, If I > go out on a hike and cut blazes on trees on my way out so I can find my way > home, that is stygmergy in good standing, right? > > > > > Now let’s try a very simple ca where the rule is, if nothing is written, > write x; if x, white o beside; if o, write x beside. > > > > > X > > > OXO > > > XOXOX > > > ETC. > > > > > Now, if we consider what is written at each stage as a thing put out in > the environment and the “rules” what the organism brings to the table then > each line is the joint product of the previous line and the rule, hence > stygmergy. > > > > > Am I stretching a point. Is everything not stygmergy? > > > > > N > > > > > Nick Thompson > > > thompnicks...@gmail.com<mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> <mailto: > thompnicks...@gmail.com<mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com>> > > > https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ < > https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/> > > > > > *From:* Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com<mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> > <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com<mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>>> *On > Behalf Of *Jochen Fromm > > *Sent:* Tuesday, October 19, 2021 1:05 PM > > *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group < > friam@redfish.com<mailto:friam@redfish.com> <mailto:friam@redfish.com > <mailto:friam@redfish.com>>> > > *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] stygmergy, CA's, and [biological] development > > > > > No, CAs are not a good model for stygmergy IMHO. Stygmergy is as Wikipedia > says a mechanism of indirect coordination through the environment. For > example: ants which exploit a food source by following a pheromone trail. > Or termites which build a nest. > > > > In Cellular Automata there is no clear distinction between agent and > environment. They are just a grid of states which evolves step by step by > updating the cells with a transition rule or function. > > > The other type of collective intelligence besides stygmergy is swarm > formation. The individual member is attracted to the group as a whole but > repelled by other individuals. You know the classic Boids rules which > govern fish swarms and bird flocks: "stay close to the group but keep away > from your neighbors". > > > For more complex things you probably need a code. If the individuals are > smart, then a few rules are enough - holy books have typically only a few > MB. If the individuals are lifeless molecules, then the code can be several > GB (a human genome has roughly 3 GB). > > > > > Hope that helps a bit? You are lucky to have such a smart grandson! I > believe Frank has grandchildren too. > > > Jochen > > > > > > > -------- Original message -------- > > > From: thompnicks...@gmail.com<mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> <mailto: > thompnicks...@gmail.com<mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com>> > > > Date: 10/19/21 20:15 (GMT+01:00) > > > To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' < > friam@redfish.com<mailto:friam@redfish.com> <mailto:friam@redfish.com > <mailto:friam@redfish.com>>> > > > Subject: [FRIAM] stygmergy, CA's, and [biological] development > > > > > Friends, > > > Beware. As usual, I am trying to get you to think for me. > > > My grandson is working on a regeneration project in his freshman biolab > (Planaria) and his sources and texts are replete with cognitive language > like “signal” and “memory” etc., which implies that as the worm regenerates > it is influenced by a guiding idea of what it is producing. My basic > intuition, as you know, that this doesn’t happen in human cognition, let > alone worm regeneration and that processes that produce a functional head > from a slice of the rear end of a flatworm have no idea what they are doing > even when they are done. Thus I imagine an advancing edge of structure > with each new bit influencing the rules by which the next bit . Which, of > course, puts me in mind both of stygmergy and of Cellular Automata. So to > my questions: > > > Are Cellular Automata a good model for Stygmergy? > > > Is Stygmergy a good model for organismic development? > > > Why? Or Why not? Discuss. > > > > > Also, is there a good website, citizen-friendly, steep learning curve, > where my grandson and I could explore the relation between developmental > processes and ca’s. I looked at NewLogo Library and did not find there > any models of regeneration, but may not have known where to look. I did > find THIS <https://distill.pub/2020/growing-ca/> which deep down in the > Table of Contents seemed to have three regeneration models including one > named “Planaria”, but I could no see how to go further with it. If > somebody could have a look at it and give me some tips for how to use it, I > would be ever so grateful. > > > -- > glen ⛧ > > > .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: > 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ > > > .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: > 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >
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