Do you find the term "niche construction" equally uninteresting?
On Tue, Oct 19, 2021 at 9:56 PM Marcus Daniels <mar...@snoutfarm.com> wrote: > I don’t actually get what is interesting about the term. In computer > science it would be a “blackboard system” or simply “memory”. > > > > *From:* Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com> *On Behalf Of *Nicholas Thompson > *Sent:* Tuesday, October 19, 2021 8:34 PM > *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group < > friam@redfish.com> > *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] stygmergy, CA's, and [biological] development > > > > Ugh. I was making fun of myself. If everything is stigmergy then the > word has no interesting use. > > > > I am in danger of confusing it with niche construction. The concept > offers an alternative to Lamarckian mechanisms for an organism to direct > its own evolution. It's like the inheritance of acquired environments. I > think of it as including such phenomena as squirrels and jays putting > acorns in the ground and thus providing an environment rich with food for > the winter and also, perhaps, in the very long run, future oak trees. In > some sense, the environment that selects the organism is an environment > that is selected by the organism. > > > > I think the word does have a use, but only if we distinguish between > things left behind that positively affect those that follow. To my > surprise, the word is apparently of recent origin having been specifically > invented to apply to ant pheromone trails in the fifties. So, I suppose we > might narrow it's meaning to objects left to convey information and leave > niche construction to apply to objects that provide shelter, nutrition or > other benefits to the finder, eg., acorns, beaver dams, > > > > Thanks for pitching in, everybody. You have helped to drive me out of my > post travel lassitude. > > > > Nick > > > > On Tue, Oct 19, 2021 at 8:36 PM Frank Wimberly <wimber...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > Aren't we all immersed in stygmergy continuously while we're alive and > maybe before and after? This is a possible interpretation of Nick's > comment that everything is stygmergy. > > --- > Frank C. Wimberly > 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, > Santa Fe, NM 87505 > > 505 670-9918 > Santa Fe, NM > > > > On Tue, Oct 19, 2021, 8:29 PM Marcus Daniels <mar...@snoutfarm.com> wrote: > > What I was driving at is that nature doesn’t give a damn whether we > categorize certain globs of stuff as “agents” or “environment” or > “transactions”. Stigmergy could be going all the time in some subtle way > we can’t discern because we are looking at the pieces the wrong way. > > > On Oct 19, 2021, at 1:05 PM, uǝlƃ ☤>$ <geprope...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > To be clear though, this requires a flexible understanding of "agent" > or whatever's doing the indirect coordinating "through" the environment. > I.e. "stygmergy" isn't very well defined. > > > >> On 10/19/21 12:58 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > >> Game of Life has been shown to be universal > >> > >> > >> > >> > https://uwe-repository.worktribe.com/output/822575/turing-machine-universality-of-the-game-of-life > < > https://uwe-repository.worktribe.com/output/822575/turing-machine-universality-of-the-game-of-life > > > >> > >> > >> > >> I would expect there are many “intermediate lambda” CAs that behave > this way, and so could implement any simulation manifesting stigmergy. > >> > >> > >> > >> *From:* Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com> *On Behalf Of *Jochen Fromm > >> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 19, 2021 12:40 PM > >> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group < > friam@redfish.com> > >> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] stygmergy, CA's, and [biological] development > >> > >> > >> > >> Interesting point. What do the others think? > >> > >> > >> > >> I think if you start with an "X" at the top and consider the X as your > agent and the space to the left and right as the environment then yes, we > would have a kind of stygmergy model for an agent which interacts in a two > dimensional world (one space and one time dimension). It is a rather > limited model though. I am not sure if it is useful :-/ > >> > >> > >> > >> -J. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> -------- Original message -------- > >> > >> From: thompnicks...@gmail.com <mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> > >> > >> Date: 10/19/21 21:28 (GMT+01:00) > >> > >> To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' < > friam@redfish.com <mailto:friam@redfish.com>> > >> > >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] stygmergy, CA's, and [biological] development > >> > >> > >> > >> Thanks, Jochen, for answering. > >> > >> > >> > >> Let me try to stretch the point and see if I can bring you on board. > In the first place, mimimally, stygmergy need not involve sociality. So, > If I go out on a hike and cut blazes on trees on my way out so I can find > my way home, that is stygmergy in good standing, right? > >> > >> > >> > >> Now let’s try a very simple ca where the rule is, if nothing is > written, write x; if x, white o beside; if o, write x beside. > >> > >> > >> > >> X > >> > >> OXO > >> > >> XOXOX > >> > >> ETC. > >> > >> > >> > >> Now, if we consider what is written at each stage as a thing put out in > the environment and the “rules” what the organism brings to the table then > each line is the joint product of the previous line and the rule, hence > stygmergy. > >> > >> > >> > >> Am I stretching a point. Is everything not stygmergy? > >> > >> > >> > >> N > >> > >> > >> > >> Nick Thompson > >> > >> thompnicks...@gmail.com <mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> > >> > >> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ < > https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/> > >> > >> > >> > >> *From:* Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com <mailto: > friam-boun...@redfish.com>> *On Behalf Of *Jochen Fromm > >> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 19, 2021 1:05 PM > >> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group < > friam@redfish.com <mailto:friam@redfish.com>> > >> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] stygmergy, CA's, and [biological] development > >> > >> > >> > >> No, CAs are not a good model for stygmergy IMHO. Stygmergy is as > Wikipedia says a mechanism of indirect coordination through the > environment. For example: ants which exploit a food source by following a > pheromone trail. Or termites which build a nest. > >> > >> > >> In Cellular Automata there is no clear distinction between agent and > environment. They are just a grid of states which evolves step by step by > updating the cells with a transition rule or function. > >> > >> The other type of collective intelligence besides stygmergy is swarm > formation. The individual member is attracted to the group as a whole but > repelled by other individuals. You know the classic Boids rules which > govern fish swarms and bird flocks: "stay close to the group but keep away > from your neighbors". > >> > >> For more complex things you probably need a code. If the individuals > are smart, then a few rules are enough - holy books have typically only a > few MB. If the individuals are lifeless molecules, then the code can be > several GB (a human genome has roughly 3 GB). > >> > >> > >> > >> Hope that helps a bit? You are lucky to have such a smart grandson! I > believe Frank has grandchildren too. > >> > >> Jochen > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> -------- Original message -------- > >> > >> From: thompnicks...@gmail.com <mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> > >> > >> Date: 10/19/21 20:15 (GMT+01:00) > >> > >> To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' < > friam@redfish.com <mailto:friam@redfish.com>> > >> > >> Subject: [FRIAM] stygmergy, CA's, and [biological] development > >> > >> > >> > >> Friends, > >> > >> Beware. As usual, I am trying to get you to think for me. > >> > >> My grandson is working on a regeneration project in his freshman > biolab (Planaria) and his sources and texts are replete with cognitive > language like “signal” and “memory” etc., which implies that as the worm > regenerates it is influenced by a guiding idea of what it is producing. My > basic intuition, as you know, that this doesn’t happen in human cognition, > let alone worm regeneration and that processes that produce a functional > head from a slice of the rear end of a flatworm have no idea what they are > doing even when they are done. Thus I imagine an advancing edge of > structure with each new bit influencing the rules by which the next bit . > Which, of course, puts me in mind both of stygmergy and of Cellular > Automata. So to my questions: > >> > >> Are Cellular Automata a good model for Stygmergy? > >> > >> Is Stygmergy a good model for organismic development? > >> > >> Why? Or Why not? Discuss. > >> > >> > >> > >> Also, is there a good website, citizen-friendly, steep learning curve, > where my grandson and I could explore the relation between developmental > processes and ca’s. I looked at NewLogo Library and did not find there > any models of regeneration, but may not have known where to look. I did > find THIS <https://distill.pub/2020/growing-ca/> which deep down in the > Table of Contents seemed to have three regeneration models including one > named “Planaria”, but I could no see how to go further with it. If > somebody could have a look at it and give me some tips for how to use it, I > would be ever so grateful. > >> > >> > >> > >> Good to be back. > > > > -- > > "Better to be slapped with the truth than kissed with a lie." > > ☤>$ uǝlƃ > > > > > > .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - > . > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > > archives: > > 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ > > .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: > 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ > > > .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: > 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ > > > .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: > 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >
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