I haven't read it, yet, but intend to: Alcoholics Anonymous and other 12-step programs for alcohol use disorder https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32159228/
If we believe the results, my guess is the mechanism of action is *not* belief, but behavior. Emotion is a poignant behavior and shouldn't really be swept under the rug of "belief". Of course, belief is also a behavior, but perhaps so far derived from banal behavior as to be separate in kind. On 10/12/21 8:51 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > Running takes a lot of time. Runners say it is good, and often try to > recruit more runners, but the activity is probably a net productivity drain. > The elevated alertness after running doesn't last that long. It creates a > focus around something that is pretty fleeting. Perhaps runners live > longer, but maybe it is just better if we die off soon after retirement > anyway? Reflecting on it, I guess the main benefit is that it illustrates > one path to transformation. A runner can see that their perceptions -- how > they feel in the moment -- can change dramatically after they become active. > > One could argue there is a transformation that occurs for people in 12 step > programs and that is "real". A difference is that there is more than a > belief at work with fitness. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com> On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$ > Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2021 1:53 AM > To: friam@redfish.com > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] [dis]integrated > > I feel that way about anyone who "stands in awe" of anything, actually. We're > consistently bombarded with phrases like "the majesty of" this or that ... or > this or that "takes my breath away" and whatnot. Maybe we could call such > nonsense the Idioms of Awe. Religious belief is the favorite bogey of > atheists. But we find it everywhere. Back in Portland, I abutted so many > "foodies", it literally dis-gusted me. Food is fuel. That's it. No matter how > much the True Believers proselytize the latest fad, that Awesome New > Breakfast Place or whatever. It's just food. Please eat so we don't have to > hear you talk anymore. > > We see it a lot in our obComplexity crowd. We see it in the Singularians. We > see it in the formalists and even the Dionysians. Runners are especially bad, > coonnssttantly yapping about their religion. But weightlifters are no better. > Even the mobility bros seem to have drunk the Kool-Aid. Pretty much anywhere > anyone can "get carried away" with something, you'll find the True Believers > waiting in the wings to swoop in and brainwash you. > > At least the Rationalists have a method for mind-changing, unlike most True > Believers. But rationality isn't *fascinating*. People need to be fascinated. > My own pet theory is that our anatomy has been pressured toward fascination, > a desire to concentrate, to focus for an extended time. The trick is to ask, > given the target domain/problem/issue, how long do we need to focus on it? > Perhaps some domains really do need multiple generations of concentrating > individuals. Perhaps some domains only need a few people to focus on it for a > year or so. > > In that context, those who are seemingly stuck in some gravity well of True > Belief are more pitiful than repulsive. (Or maybe they're repulsive *because* > they're so pitiable?) What we need is an education program that gives the > pathetic True Believers some tools that help them climb out of their hole. > But like the cops responding to a call from a homeless camp littered with > human feces and used needles, educating the True Believers can be dangerous. > The abyss stares back into you. > > On 10/11/21 12:38 PM, David Eric Smith wrote: >> Yeah I don’t know. >> >> For some years I was working in ocean-floor engineering, and got a feel for >> seawater. For all the devices you design, it is all-surrounding and >> omnipresent. It relentlessly intrudes through any crack, seam, or pore, and >> it corrodes whatever it touches. For whatever reason, this describes the >> affect of my response to people’s religiosity. The more genuine and sincere >> they are, the stronger my aversion to that in them. It’s not even the same >> as being averse to the whole person. There are people of whom I think the >> world, and to whom I am very attached, in whom I just have to work around >> this one radioactive thing. n.b., however, that all such people are related >> to me by birth. There don’t seem to be any ones I have sought out as >> friends of whom that happens to be the case. Maybe, borderline, one or two >> Jews, who seem to have a decorum and sense of proper privacy (those >> particular people, I mean) for themselves and for others. >> >> There is another metaphor that also serves. I have a friend with fairly bad >> arachnophobia. I was commenting that I didn’t know what that would feel >> like, as spiders don’t particularly bother me, was for example ticks do. >> She commented that it was funny, because her brother had said the same >> thing, using the same examples. The reason, of course, is that most spiders >> prefer to mind their own business. (Some Australian mouse spiders, perhaps >> less so.) For ticks, their business is _you_. Likewise, there is no box >> within which religiosity is content to stay. It’s business is always _you_, >> so you can never turn your back on it in rest. >> >> In trying to form a clear view, for my own purposes, of why I respond this >> way, in a quite different context earlier this week, I was thinking of >> trying to explain to someone that I grew up with religious people on me >> trying to force some kind of “religious conversion” and, in looking for a >> metaphor, the one that came to me was “like cops on a black man”. And no >> matter how submissive I am and how much I would like to be cooperative, I so >> far have not found it in myself to want to go back into that. >> >> It surprises me that these studies don’t seem to address questions of >> domination and constriction, and the degree to which being able to breathe >> matters to one or another person. >> >> Eric >> >> >> >>> On Oct 11, 2021, at 2:07 PM, Marcus Daniels <mar...@snoutfarm.com> wrote: >>> >>> Doesn't work for me. My parents are in a very liberal church and (I >>> think) like it because it gives some structure and support in their >>> community. My dad's (I think formative) education at a strong liberal >>> arts college probably contributed to my tendency to deconstruct things. >>> I'm not particularly annoyed with their semi-religious activities, but >>> there were plenty of people in my high school that I found to be religious >>> crazies who I almost felt obligated to abuse. That hardened my atheism, >>> but really it was hard right away in my early teenage years. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com> On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$ >>> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2021 9:43 AM >>> To: FriAM <friam@redfish.com> >>> Subject: [FRIAM] [dis]integrated >>> >>> Study: Atheists are Made By Their Parents >>> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fskepchick.org%2f2021%2f10%2fstudy-atheists-are-made-by-their-parents%2f&c=E,1,2G1IsnysW37qkXOrMoyLXGgacehySvzlBBD0wGXgUiHZFPFiq8oRkLu4J8VyPqz0vteY4F9ijy0I1jQMz57JJIg1WkOeQPeOqYDV9WgSFj4,&typo=1 >>> >>> Much of the argument is about credible displays of faith and hypocrisy. I >>> thought this might be interesting following on the epically bent thread on >>> [in]consistency, as well as some old conversations about how well one can >>> describe/explain some historical decision/branch-point in their own life. >>> >>> I land about where Rebecca does, I think. > -- "Better to be slapped with the truth than kissed with a lie." ☤>$ uǝlƃ .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
