Chuang Tzu's butcher did explain how he did it — "I just cut where the meat isn't."
davew On Tue, Oct 12, 2021, at 7:03 AM, Roger Critchlow wrote: > As Yogi Berra might have said: all this talk about the ineffable, je ne sais > quoi. > > The way that can be spoken is not the way, because the speaking itself spoils > the effect. Chuang Tzu's butcher can carve a beast in one fluid stroke of > the knife, but he can't explain how he's doing it; and if he did explain how > he was doing it, it wouldn't be the same it anymore. > > https://inference-review.com/article/primate-memory > >> IN MY OWN WORK, I have often described the social learning techniques of >> chimpanzees as education by master-apprenticeship.11 >> <https://inference-review.com/article/primate-memory#endnote-11> Mothers and >> other adults take on the role of the master. The young chimpanzees in the >> community learn by carefully observing the behavior of the masters. >> Observational learning has three important aspects: the master models >> behavior but does not actively teach it; the apprentice has a strong and >> intrinsic motivation to copy the behavior; and, importantly, the masters are >> tolerant toward their apprentices while they learn. > > Note that the chimpanzees also learn to be teachers by the same method, they > model the "moral obligation" to teach along with the practical lesson. One > could almost say that the chimpanzees "believe" in teaching their young. Or > that the chimps are practicing a kind of "ancestor worship" by preserving > these activities in their "culture". Then again one could write it all off > to natural selection of traits that accidentally map to moral categories. > > And we taller primates also learn a lot this way, language, moral judgment, > bragging about our language skills and moral judgment, and bullying others to > acknowledge our skills and accept our judgments. > > -- rec -- > > > > On Tue, Oct 12, 2021 at 4:53 AM uǝlƃ ☤>$ <geprope...@gmail.com> wrote: >> I feel that way about anyone who "stands in awe" of anything, actually. >> We're consistently bombarded with phrases like "the majesty of" this or that >> ... or this or that "takes my breath away" and whatnot. Maybe we could call >> such nonsense the Idioms of Awe. Religious belief is the favorite bogey of >> atheists. But we find it everywhere. Back in Portland, I abutted so many >> "foodies", it literally dis-gusted me. Food is fuel. That's it. No matter >> how much the True Believers proselytize the latest fad, that Awesome New >> Breakfast Place or whatever. It's just food. Please eat so we don't have to >> hear you talk anymore. >> >> We see it a lot in our obComplexity crowd. We see it in the Singularians. We >> see it in the formalists and even the Dionysians. Runners are especially >> bad, coonnssttantly yapping about their religion. But weightlifters are no >> better. Even the mobility bros seem to have drunk the Kool-Aid. Pretty much >> anywhere anyone can "get carried away" with something, you'll find the True >> Believers waiting in the wings to swoop in and brainwash you. >> >> At least the Rationalists have a method for mind-changing, unlike most True >> Believers. But rationality isn't *fascinating*. People need to be >> fascinated. My own pet theory is that our anatomy has been pressured toward >> fascination, a desire to concentrate, to focus for an extended time. The >> trick is to ask, given the target domain/problem/issue, how long do we need >> to focus on it? Perhaps some domains really do need multiple generations of >> concentrating individuals. Perhaps some domains only need a few people to >> focus on it for a year or so. >> >> In that context, those who are seemingly stuck in some gravity well of True >> Belief are more pitiful than repulsive. (Or maybe they're repulsive >> *because* they're so pitiable?) What we need is an education program that >> gives the pathetic True Believers some tools that help them climb out of >> their hole. But like the cops responding to a call from a homeless camp >> littered with human feces and used needles, educating the True Believers can >> be dangerous. The abyss stares back into you. >> >> On 10/11/21 12:38 PM, David Eric Smith wrote: >> > Yeah I don’t know. >> > >> > For some years I was working in ocean-floor engineering, and got a feel >> > for seawater. For all the devices you design, it is all-surrounding and >> > omnipresent. It relentlessly intrudes through any crack, seam, or pore, >> > and it corrodes whatever it touches. For whatever reason, this describes >> > the affect of my response to people’s religiosity. The more genuine and >> > sincere they are, the stronger my aversion to that in them. It’s not even >> > the same as being averse to the whole person. There are people of whom I >> > think the world, and to whom I am very attached, in whom I just have to >> > work around this one radioactive thing. n.b., however, that all such >> > people are related to me by birth. There don’t seem to be any ones I have >> > sought out as friends of whom that happens to be the case. Maybe, >> > borderline, one or two Jews, who seem to have a decorum and sense of >> > proper privacy (those particular people, I mean) for themselves and for >> > others. >> > >> > There is another metaphor that also serves. I have a friend with fairly >> > bad arachnophobia. I was commenting that I didn’t know what that would >> > feel like, as spiders don’t particularly bother me, was for example ticks >> > do. She commented that it was funny, because her brother had said the >> > same thing, using the same examples. The reason, of course, is that most >> > spiders prefer to mind their own business. (Some Australian mouse >> > spiders, perhaps less so.) For ticks, their business is _you_. Likewise, >> > there is no box within which religiosity is content to stay. It’s >> > business is always _you_, so you can never turn your back on it in rest. >> > >> > In trying to form a clear view, for my own purposes, of why I respond this >> > way, in a quite different context earlier this week, I was thinking of >> > trying to explain to someone that I grew up with religious people on me >> > trying to force some kind of “religious conversion” and, in looking for a >> > metaphor, the one that came to me was “like cops on a black man”. And no >> > matter how submissive I am and how much I would like to be cooperative, I >> > so far have not found it in myself to want to go back into that. >> > >> > It surprises me that these studies don’t seem to address questions of >> > domination and constriction, and the degree to which being able to breathe >> > matters to one or another person. >> > >> > Eric >> > >> > >> > >> >> On Oct 11, 2021, at 2:07 PM, Marcus Daniels <mar...@snoutfarm.com> wrote: >> >> >> >> Doesn't work for me. My parents are in a very liberal church and (I >> >> think) like it because it gives some structure and support in their >> >> community. My dad's (I think formative) education at a strong liberal >> >> arts college probably contributed to my tendency to deconstruct things. >> >> I'm not particularly annoyed with their semi-religious activities, but >> >> there were plenty of people in my high school that I found to be >> >> religious crazies who I almost felt obligated to abuse. That hardened my >> >> atheism, but really it was hard right away in my early teenage years. >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com> On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$ >> >> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2021 9:43 AM >> >> To: FriAM <friam@redfish.com> >> >> Subject: [FRIAM] [dis]integrated >> >> >> >> Study: Atheists are Made By Their Parents >> >> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fskepchick.org%2f2021%2f10%2fstudy-atheists-are-made-by-their-parents%2f&c=E,1,2G1IsnysW37qkXOrMoyLXGgacehySvzlBBD0wGXgUiHZFPFiq8oRkLu4J8VyPqz0vteY4F9ijy0I1jQMz57JJIg1WkOeQPeOqYDV9WgSFj4,&typo=1 >> >> >> >> Much of the argument is about credible displays of faith and hypocrisy. I >> >> thought this might be interesting following on the epically bent thread >> >> on [in]consistency, as well as some old conversations about how well one >> >> can describe/explain some historical decision/branch-point in their own >> >> life. >> >> >> >> I land about where Rebecca does, I think. >> >> -- >> "Better to be slapped with the truth than kissed with a lie." >> ☤>$ uǝlƃ >> >> >> .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - . >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam >> un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >> archives: >> 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ > > .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: > 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >
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