Although I totally agree with Merle on the moral issues, I doubt we are going to change any minds on this list.
I would like to comment on some of the economic and scientific issues. Over the 40 years I’ve been here, I’ve worked with the labs in open areas (visualization, remediation, non-proliferation) and have many of my students working at the labs. I’ve also worked with the state, the city and labs on economic development. Here are some observations: NM is a welfare state; it’s welfare for physicists and a few others. While one can argue that it’s OK because of the basic science and defense considerations (which to me are somewhat suspect), from an economic development perspective, the labs are not helping NM in the long run. We were a very poor state before the labs and 80 years later we are still a very poor state in spite of the billions of dollars that have gone into the labs. Why have NM failed when other states (CA, WA, NY, MA) have prospered on the basis of science and technology? A large part of the reasons have to do with a welfare mentality that sees economic development as a way of getting more money from the government. The overall quality of the science at the labs is also debatable. If you’re doing high energy physics, you need the massive government funding. But these lab groups are pretty much competing only with each other so rating the quality of the science and its cost vs benefits is difficult if not impossible. Certainly there are scientific stars at the labs but they don’t represent the totality of the labs. In area in which I’ve worked, there have been large expensive projects at the labs, the quality has been mediocre and the labs are almost totally unrepresented in open conferences and journals. A related issue is that the cost of doing science at the labs is ridiculously high, another consequence of their welfare status. Under the present management, many of the scientists have to seek external funding but the cost of a lab scientist is usually two to three times higher than for a university researcher. Not a good argument for bringing a lab to SF. In areas where the labs have had key projects such as remediation solar energy where visionary scientists at the labs have started research very early, major projects were started and abandoned due to political decisions made in Washington. Is it any wonder that the labs cannot attract the best graduates in key areas like Computer Science? I’d also suggest that some of you look at the various proposals that have come before the city. Although some of the proposals bordered on the bizarre, all the reasonable ones—those that recognized the debt load and the state of the infrastructure on the property—recognized the only viable solution was one that focussed on multi-use. If LANS is one of the finalists, I am pretty sure it will be as part of a broader proposal. Ed _______________________ Ed Angel Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory (ARTS Lab) Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico 1017 Sierra Pinon Santa Fe, NM 87501 505-984-0136 (home) an...@cs.unm.edu <mailto:an...@cs.unm.edu> 505-453-4944 (cell) http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel <http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel> > On Jan 13, 2020, at 9:36 PM, Merle Lefkoff <merlelefk...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Marcus, I spent four years at CNLS as Guest Scientist and Affiliate. I still > wouldn't be O.K. if it were housed in Santa Fe. Nuclear weapons work--and > Lanl is a nuclear weapons laboratory-- whether research or training or > administration doesn't belong anywhere on the planet. But if it is going to > be pursued by flawed human beings, it belongs up on the hill. As many of us > know, and you rightly point out, our local economy is in a > far-from-equilibrium state. Bringing more humane education of some kind to > Santa Fe would provide a tiny bit more balance. > > On Mon, Jan 13, 2020 at 9:06 PM Marcus Daniels <mar...@snoutfarm.com > <mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com>> wrote: > It would make sense to put an organization like the Center for Nonlinear > Studies in Santa Fe. Academics could fly in to the municipal airport, give > a talk and leave without it being hours more of effort slogging up and down > the hill. Badging could be further streamlined, or maybe just eliminated. > Maybe they could even have public talks as there’d be no need for security > hovering at all times. A lot of foreign nationals don’t stay to be staff > members, as is it advantageous to get a clearance (and a foreign national > cannot). If they diffused into the Santa Fe population, maybe they’d stay > and create start-ups. There is little reason to live in Los Alamos, as > there just is nothing up there, economically speaking, except the company. > (Ok, they have good schools, but that’s it.) Smart public relations for > LANL if they can pull it off. > > > > From: Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> on > behalf of Frank Wimberly <wimber...@gmail.com <mailto:wimber...@gmail.com>> > Reply-To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group > <friam@redfish.com <mailto:friam@redfish.com>> > Date: Monday, January 13, 2020 at 7:41 PM > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com > <mailto:friam@redfish.com>> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: NO LANL IN SANTA FE! Wednesday, 12; 00 outside SF > City Hall; bring friends > > > > In Pittsburgh I worked with a man who had formerly worked at LANL in plasma > physics. When I told him about my relationship to NM he said the it is a > state on welfare. He was referring to the percentage of that State's economy > based on Federal $$. Highest in the US? I am aware of many projects at LANL > that are not about weapons but others know more about that than I. > > ----------------------------------- > Frank Wimberly > > Phone (505) 670-9918 > > > > On Mon, Jan 13, 2020, 8:33 PM Marcus Daniels <mar...@snoutfarm.com > <mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com>> wrote: > > < There are many powerful people in Washington who know LANL specializes in > taxpayer ripoffs. > > > > > I am confident the use of such a property would be for science, > administration, and outreach & training functions, not secure national work. > It would probably make a lot of LANL employees happy, as many of them live > in Santa Fe. Anyway, get real, if it wasn't for all the federal money, > cities in New Mexico would collapse, there would be no SFI, etc. > > > > Marcus > > From: Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> on > behalf of Merle Lefkoff <merlelefk...@gmail.com > <mailto:merlelefk...@gmail.com>> > Sent: Monday, January 13, 2020 2:41 PM > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com > <mailto:friam@redfish.com>> > Subject: [FRIAM] Fwd: NO LANL IN SANTA FE! Wednesday, 12; 00 outside SF City > Hall; bring friends > > > > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message --------- > From: Leslie Lakind <leftielak...@gmail.com <mailto:leftielak...@gmail.com>> > Date: Mon, Jan 13, 2020 at 2:23 PM > Subject: NO LANL IN SANTA FE! Wednesday, 12;00 outside SF City Hall; bring > friends > To: > > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message --------- > From: Greg Mello <gme...@lasg.org <mailto:gme...@lasg.org>> > > > > Permalink <http://www.lasg.org/letters/2020/nm_12Jan2020.html> for this > letter. Please forward! Other Letters > <http://www.lasg.org/letters/letters.html> > Home page <http://lasg.org/index.htm>; Press Releases > <http://www.lasg.org/press/PressReleases.html>; Bulletins > <http://www.lasg.org/ActionAlerts/action.htm>; > To subscribe to our Friends listserve (formerly by invitation only) send a > blank email here. <mailto:lasg_friends-subscr...@lists.riseup.net> To > unsubscribe send a blank email here. > <mailto:lasg_friends-unsubscr...@lists.riseup.net> > To subscribe to our Main listserve (less content, less frequent) send a blank > email here. <mailto:lasg-subscr...@lists.riseup.net> To unsubscribe send a > blank email here. <mailto:lasg-unsubscr...@lists.riseup.net> > Our blog (makeover coming!): Remember your Humanity > <http://lasg.org/wordpress/>. Twitter: @TrishABQ > <https://twitter.com/#%21/TrishABQ>. > Contribute. <http://www.lasg.org/contribute.htm> Volunteer. Contact us (Greg > and Trish in our main office <http://www.lasg.org/contact.htm>, Lydia Clark > in our Santa Fe office <mailto:clark4...@msn.com>) > > This letter: Press conference outside Santa Fe City Hall at noon on Wednesday > Jan. 15 (map <https://goo.gl/maps/ycyfawsEqEYzu3wG9>) -- please come, and > please recruit others > > Dear New Mexico friends – > > As we have explained in previous letters > <http://www.lasg.org/letters/letters.html>, Wednesday is the day on which the > City will announce the finalists for "Master Developer" of the former College > of Santa Fe site (and possibly surrounding properties as well, a 64- to > ~100-acre project). The National Nuclear Security Administration (NNSA) has > applied for this role. NNSA and/or Los Alamos National Laboratory (LANL) are > present in some (not all) other proposals, as tenant(s). > > The situation is opaque, fluid, and developing. So far, Mayor Webber has > disdainfully rebuffed our requests to meet or discuss the momentous social, > cultural, and economic development impacts of placing a nuclear weapons > campus in Santa Fe. (Don't be deceived -- that is exactly what LANL is and > what this would be.) > > People power may be the only force stronger than LANL's money and corruption. > We really need you to help us expand our numbers. > > If you live anywhere nearby please come to this joint press conference, and > please ask as many friends to come as possible. Sheer attendance matters. A > strong showing Wednesday will save countless hours of work later, and will > give wings to efforts to push back on LANL's entirely unjustified expansion. > There are many powerful people in Washington who know LANL specializes in > taxpayer ripoffs. Some of them need to see some spine from us out here to > take to their bosses. > > New Mexico is being selected to be a nuclear weapons support and sacrifice > area. That now includes the Santa Fe metro area. > > We may not know know the outcome of this first Midtown Campus decision by > noon Wednesday but regardless of that we must seize the day. > > While it seems absurd that NNSA could be a possible "master developer," we > can't be sure that Mayor Webber and the people around him wouldn't want that > -- or want, say, a training facility for plutonium workers. We just don't > know. > > This event will also give us a chance for us to network with each other and > with representatives of any other groups present, as well as speak to any > City officials willing to do so. > > Getting people to come on Wednesday is the sole action item we are > recommending right now. It is very, very important! > > Thank you! > > Greg, Trish, Lydia, Ernie, Michelle, and the rest of the Study Group > > -- > > Greg Mello > Los Alamos Study Group <http://www.lasg.org/> > 2901 Summit Place NE > Albuquerque, NM 87106 > 505-265-1200 office > 505-577-8563 cell > To subscribe to our Friends listserve send a blank email here. > <mailto:lasg_friends-subscr...@lists.riseup.net> To unsubscribe send a blank > email here. <mailto:lasg_friends-unsubscr...@lists.riseup.net> > To subscribe to our Main listserve (less frequent) send a blank email here. > <mailto:lasg-subscr...@lists.riseup.net> To unsubscribe send a blank email > here. <mailto:lasg-unsubscr...@lists.riseup.net> > Our blog: Remember your Humanity <http://lasg.org/wordpress/>. Twitter: > @TrishABQ <https://twitter.com/#%21/TrishABQ>. We have shut down our Facebook > page. > --- > To unsubscribe: <mailto:lasg_friends-unsubscr...@lists.riseup.net > <mailto:lasg_friends-unsubscr...@lists.riseup.net>> > List help: <https://riseup.net/lists <https://riseup.net/lists>> > > > > > > -- > > America is waking up, as Germany once did, to the awareness that > 1/3 of your people would kill another 1/3, while 1/3 watches. > Werner Herzog > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D. > President, Center for Emergent Diplomacy > emergentdiplomacy.org <http://emergentdiplomacy.org/> > Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA > > merlelefk...@gmail.com <mailto:merlelef...@gmail.com> > mobile: (303) 859-5609 > skype: merle.lelfkoff2 > > twitter: @Merle_Lefkoff > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > <http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com> > archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > <http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/> > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > <http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/> by Dr. Strangelove > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > <http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com> > archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > <http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/> > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > <http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/> by Dr. Strangelove > > > -- > Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D. > President, Center for Emergent Diplomacy > emergentdiplomacy.org <http://emergentdiplomacy.org/> > Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA > merlelefk...@gmail.com <mailto:merlelef...@gmail.com> > mobile: (303) 859-5609 > skype: merle.lelfkoff2 > twitter: @Merle_Lefkoff > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
