On Tuesday, January 7, 2025 at 3:47:24 PM UTC-7 Quentin Anciaux wrote:
Le mar. 7 janv. 2025, 23:40, Brent Meeker <meeke...@gmail.com> a écrit : On 1/7/2025 1:04 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: Le mar. 7 janv. 2025, 21:55, Brent Meeker <meeke...@gmail.com> a écrit : On 1/7/2025 3:30 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: Le mar. 7 janv. 2025, 00:39, Brent Meeker <meeke...@gmail.com> a écrit : On 1/6/2025 1:38 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: It's just improbable, which is quite different from absurd. Every hand of bridge I've been dealt was improbable, but I never considered one absurd. Brent I understand your analogy with improbable bridge hands, but I think the difference lies in the nature of "improbable" versus "absurd" when we scale it to the entirety of existence. The improbability of any specific bridge hand exists within a defined framework with clear rules and outcomes—it is improbable, but not absurd because we understand the context. In the case of existence, a single-world theory suggests that out of infinite possibilities, only one outcome is "realized." This is not just improbable—it's a rejection of the inherent structure of possibility itself. Without a multiverse or some equivalent explanation, the realization of just one world feels like a singular, unexplained "bridge hand" with no deck, no dealer, and no game. It's the framework itself that becomes suspect. With a many-worlds or "everything exists" perspective, there is a structure that accounts for all possibilities, including the one where "I am." It doesn't feel absurd because existence is distributed across possibilities rather than being inexplicably concentrated into one. The absurdity for me isn't about odds; it's about the lack of explanatory context in a single-world view. Does that make sense? Quentin Single world theory says infinitely many worlds are possible and this one exits. MWI says all the infinitely many possible worlds exist and this is one of them. Of the two statements the latter seems more absurd to me, since it's postulating an infinity of worlds (each infinitely complex) so that your experience can be reduced to just one random selection from the infinitude. I understand the attraction since it seems to reduce the work to be done by the random selection to just placing you in the infinitude. In comparison the one-world case is selecting a single world to exist from the same infinitude of possible worlds. complexity means making many random selections. Mathematically they are equivalent: one selection among an infinitude. But one postulates that the infinitude actually exists and you've been selected to be in one; while the other says one has been selected by Nature to exist and so you're in it. Having infinities actually exist seems absurd to me. Having one of many possibilities exist is implicit in the concept of "possibility" as opposed to "certainty", so having one world exist is not absurd. I think where your intuition is led astray is in thinking of all the random choices that must have been made to realize this particular world as compared to just one random selection from all possible worlds...but the two actually are choices from sets of the same size. Brent Thank you for your thoughtful response, Brent. I understand your point, but I think the core of my issue with the single-world theory lies in the fact that in such a framework, there is only one realized history, one singular possibility that exists, while all others remain unrealized and effectively non-existent. This makes the concept of "possibilities" irrelevant in practice, as they have no role or reality in the framework. In contrast, a theory of information where consciousness emerges from the structure of all possibilities, and where all possibilities are realized (albeit perhaps with varying proportions, like with a dovetailing running algorithm), provides a coherent explanation for my "here and now." My current experience is not singled out in an unexplained and arbitrary way; it is one among the totality of possibilities. >From my perspective, the absurdity of a single-world theory is that it assumes this one realized world exists without any explanatory context for why this one, while dismissing the entirety of unrealized possibilities as irrelevant. It’s not the infinity of worlds in a many-worlds framework that I find difficult; it’s the absence of a logical framework in the single-world theory that makes it feel inconsistent or incomplete. Does this help clarify my view? Yes, basically you dislike the idea of randomness, that one thing happens and all other possibilities do not. It is "without any explanatory context for why this one" which is the essence of true randomness...if it had an explanation it wouldn't be truly random. In other words you only accept randomness as a corollary of ignorance, as in classical physics. You feel better saying everything possible has happened than saying *this* has happened at random. Brent Brent, It's not about disliking randomness per se. What I find absurd is the idea that only one possibility is realized, with no deeper context or mechanism to account for it. If there were something to account for it, it wouldn't be random. It seems you only feel ignorance type randomness is not absurd. If this single world is all there is, then possibilities are meaningless—they don't exist, they're just abstract ideas with no connection to reality. Possibilities never exist. They are notional and so we refer to them as possibilities rather than actualities. Their connection to reality is that they were possible. In a single-world theory, there is no framework that justifies why this specific sequence of events unfolded and not another. It’s not just random; it’s arbitrary to the point of being incoherent. That's what I can't agree with. You seem to be making a distinction without a difference. One sequence unfolding and not another with no justification is exactly what random means. It is just random. Random is arbitrary. To say it's incoherent seems to be just complaining that it's randomness I don't like. If only one world exists for all eternity, there’s no reason or necessity behind this singular chain of events. That's not quite right. Because QM is random doesn't mean anything-goes. Most imaginable events have zero probability in QM, that's why libraries have bigger fiction sections than physics sections. :-) In contrast, a framework where all possibilities exist makes sense because it doesn’t require this kind of arbitrary selection. My experience is one of many, and the existence of "everything" naturally explains why this experience is part of reality. A single-world theory asks us to accept that out of an infinite set of possibilities, only one was chosen—forever—and offers no explanation for that choice. That’s what I find absurd. OK. But you should reflect on why you don't find other randomness absurd. Is it because you assume it's just ignorance and not truly random? Brent Brent, I see your point, but I think we’re addressing randomness on different levels. Randomness in the sense of "ignorance of the underlying cause" doesn’t bother me because it implies there is an underlying structure we simply don’t fully understand. It leaves room for deeper explanations. But true randomness—an event or selection with no cause or reason at all—feels fundamentally incoherent to me. It’s not just that I dislike it; it seems to contradict the idea of a structured reality. You don't like true randomness because it's unintelligible to human understanding. It has no rules, which is one of the reasons Einstein never accepted QM. If it had rules, it would be deterministic. AG In a single-world framework, the realization of only one possibility is not just random—it erases the significance of all other possibilities entirely. If they never actualize, they are as good as nonexistent, rendering the concept of “possibility” meaningless. Calling them "notional" doesn’t address the absurdity of why this one possibility, and no other, should exist for all eternity. It’s not just a matter of probability; it’s a deeper philosophical problem about the nature of existence. In a multiverse framework, all possibilities are actualized. My experience, then, is part of a broader, coherent structure where possibilities have meaning because they are realized in different contexts. It avoids the arbitrary singling out of one world. This isn’t about avoiding randomness—it’s about finding an explanatory context for existence. As for QM, I agree that most "imaginable" events have zero probability, but even there, probabilities exist within a framework. A single-world theory goes beyond probabilities—it implies an arbitrary, one-time realization of a specific history without any framework to account for why this one. That’s the distinction I’m trying to make. It’s not just randomness; it’s the absence of coherence that I find troubling. Quentin Quentin Quentin -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/8951abad-254f-40ef-9300-d8bd53071fef%40gmail.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/8951abad-254f-40ef-9300-d8bd53071fef%40gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> . -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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