Hi Brent and the group. I agree as long as we stay under 8 KV. For 20 kV discharge, I would use a (easy to build) filter that slows the rise to that more like a real discharge. Nice repeatable contact discharge that more closely resembles reality.
Doug Smith Sent from my iPhone IPhone: 408-858-4528 Office: 702-570-6108 Email: [email protected] Website: http://dsmith.org ________________________________ From: Brent DeWitt <[email protected]> Sent: Monday, March 6, 2023 3:54:22 PM To: doug emcesd.com <[email protected]>; [email protected] <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [PSES] Resend of complete message on ESD thoughts I'll jump in quickly to state my opinion: Contact discharge does not represent any "natural" mechanism I know of, but I prefer it because it seems to have the highest repeatability in revealing a device's vulnerability. -Brent, "If I can't be 'right', I at least want to be consistent about it" On 3/6/2023 6:40 PM, doug emcesd.com wrote: Hi John and Chas, I and others presented the strong evidence in the late 1990s of problems, including irreproducible results, and I see the results of these problems all the time. 1. Many products fail because of E-field emissions from the simulators, which is not controlled in the standard unless recently revised. This needs to be done. I have seen many products that fail by emissions. The emissions from many simulators are far worse (10x or more) than any natural ESD event. There is at least one simulator that has an emissions profile similar to a real ESD event, the rest are over testing in a way that does not add value as it does not correspond to what can actually happen. 2. To get reproduceable results between simulators (which is a BIG problem) a max di/dt specification needs to be added to the standard as I and others proposed in the 1990s. Without this, the standard is fatally flawed and leads to random results between simulators. I and others run into this all the time. I can tell you which brands will fail a good product that actually should pass, this from the large amount of data I have generated at considerable expense to myself. This data is presented in some of my classes. 3. Just because one does not see field problems in the field (I do see such problems quite a bit) does not mean the standard is good. When a test is used that does not come remotely close to a real possible event (such asa 20 kV contact discharge used in some industries), it increases costs for everyone for no purpose. I have tons of data to support my points, some generated for the IEC in the 1990s, which should be available and more modern and voluminous data I generated in the last year or so at my own personal expense for inclusion in seminars. My personal experience also shows that agrees with my data. I am very familiar with Michael King’s contributions which were very significant but limited by the instrumentation available at the time. But even in the 1990s, the data clearly showed some changes to IEC 61000-4-2 were needed. In looking through my more recent data, there are patterns that show some interesting conclusions on ESD testing. I took the data in a way that exposed them, which we did not do in the 1990s because we did not know back then. I have helped my clients pass quite a few ESD and EMC tests by taking advantage of problems with the standards. Passing with no changes is good. They still officially passed by accredited labs and procedures but with no changes or money spent against an original fail to get quickly to market. Doug [cid:[email protected]] From: Chas Grasso <[email protected]><mailto:[email protected]> Sent: Monday, March 6, 2023 7:02 To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> Subject: Re: [PSES] Resend of complete message on ESD thoughts Good points John. On Mon, Mar 6, 2023, 7:58 AM John Woodgate <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: This message originated outside of DISH and was sent by: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> ________________________________ There are two good points about 610000-4-2:the test results are repeatable and products that pass the tests rarely suffer from ESD failures in the field. But there are, even so, unresolved issues and doubts about the relations between the tests and actual ESD events. Because the present standard 'works', strong evidence would be required to support a proposal for change, and that is not forthcoming. ====================================================================================== Best wishes John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only www.woodjohn.uk<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.woodjohn.uk&d=DwMFaQ&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM&r=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww&m=rpPAb2eJTrWbEN526jRAWfZ3KRUZLG3E9AyCvM8yX5I&s=ZNZiOeLiHc9pOq1APn37fQTPxLbUEMXhaIsJbjTjCAc&e=> Rayleigh, Essex UK I hear, and I forget. I see, and I remember. I do, and I understand. Xunzi (340 - 245 BC) On 2023-03-06 14:48, Chas Grasso wrote: Don't forget the seminal research done by WMKing on this topic. He was I believe the first to measure the fast response of an ESD event through a metal intervening object. Also, it is understood that the ESD test was a consensus output in an attempt to provide repeatability within test houses. King and Hish also produced an ESD generator that accurately replicated the research. The current ESD test is a committee consensus output which tried very hard to produce a test that could be consistent and repeatable, while at the same time be as close as possible to the actual event. On Mon, Mar 6, 2023, 1:42 AM John Woodgate <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: This message originated outside of DISH and was sent by: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> ________________________________ Yes, 61000-4-2- is not very good, but while you are reluctant to share your knowledge with the committee, it is unlikely that anything will happen. ====================================================================================== Best wishes John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only www.woodjohn.uk<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.woodjohn.uk&d=DwMFaQ&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM&r=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww&m=rpPAb2eJTrWbEN526jRAWfZ3KRUZLG3E9AyCvM8yX5I&s=ZNZiOeLiHc9pOq1APn37fQTPxLbUEMXhaIsJbjTjCAc&e=> Rayleigh, Essex UK I hear, and I forget. I see, and I remember. I do, and I understand. Xunzi (340 - 245 BC) On 2023-03-06 04:14, doug emcesd.com<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__emcesd.com&d=DwMFaQ&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM&r=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww&m=rpPAb2eJTrWbEN526jRAWfZ3KRUZLG3E9AyCvM8yX5I&s=4rhOGCbyUie-PyadDsmbOpYF_KVIA87WkkF9B7ZaoPE&e=> wrote: Hi All, I have a few thoughts I would like to share with you on ESD that have comes out of my private research into the field in recent years. 1. A 2kV air discharge can be much more likely to cause equipment malfunction than any other discharge of any voltage. 2. There is no natural ESD event comparable to a 15-20+ kV contact discharge so why test for it? That is designing for something that is extremely unlikely at best. 3. The IEC61000-4-2 does not very well model real ESD events at all. One example, my hand metal discharge at 4 kV results a current spike at the start of the discharge that is more than twice as high as the standard specifies! This is very repeatable. The above is just a sample of the research I have generated over the years. Seems like IEC 61000-4-2 needs an urgent overhaul as I believe engineers get a false sense of security that passing the test means reliable field performance, not even close! Doug Smith Sent from my iPhone IPhone: 408-858-4528 Office: 702-570-6108 Email: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> Website: http://dsmith.org<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__dsmith.org&d=DwMFaQ&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM&r=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww&m=rpPAb2eJTrWbEN526jRAWfZ3KRUZLG3E9AyCvM8yX5I&s=MDIBrgRrUJGfsZkboymSkg1uApkQgaQCGHVBlzyzLHI&e=> - ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. 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