I'll jump in quickly to state my opinion:
Contact discharge does not represent any "natural" mechanism I know of,
but I prefer it because it seems to have the highest repeatability in
revealing a device's vulnerability.
-Brent, "If I can't be 'right', I at least want to be consistent about it"
On 3/6/2023 6:40 PM, doug emcesd.com wrote:
Hi John and Chas,
I and others presented the strong evidence in the late 1990s of
problems, including irreproducible results, and I see the results of
these problems all the time.
1. Many products fail because of E-field emissions from the
simulators, which is not controlled in the standard unless
recently revised. This needs to be done. I have seen many products
that fail by emissions. The emissions from many simulators are far
worse (10x or more) than any natural ESD event. There is at least
one simulator that has an emissions profile similar to a real ESD
event, the rest are over testing in a way that does not add value
as it does not correspond to what can actually happen.
2. To get reproduceable results between simulators (which is a BIG
problem) a max di/dt specification needs to be added to the
standard as I and others proposed in the 1990s. Without this, the
standard is fatally flawed and leads to random results between
simulators. I and others run into this all the time. I can tell
you which brands will fail a good product that actually should
pass, this from the large amount of data I have generated at
considerable expense to myself. This data is presented in some of
my classes.
3. Just because one does not see field problems in the field (I do
see such problems quite a bit) does not mean the standard is good.
*When a test is used that does not come remotely close to a real
possible event (such asa 20 kV contact discharge used in some
industries), it increases costs for everyone for no purpose.*
I have tons of data to support my points, some generated for the IEC
in the 1990s, which should be available and more modern and voluminous
data I generated in the last year or so at my own personal expense for
inclusion in seminars. My personal experience also shows that agrees
with my data.
I am very familiar with Michael King’s contributions which were very
significant but limited by the instrumentation available at the time.
But even in the 1990s, the data clearly showed some changes to IEC
61000-4-2 were needed. In looking through my more recent data, there
are patterns that show some interesting conclusions on ESD testing. I
took the data in a way that exposed them, which we did not do in the
1990s because we did not know back then.
I have helped my clients pass quite a few ESD and EMC tests by taking
advantage of problems with the standards. Passing with no changes is
good. They still officially passed by accredited labs and procedures
but with no changes or money spent against an original fail to get
quickly to market.
Doug
*From:* Chas Grasso <[email protected]>
*Sent:* Monday, March 6, 2023 7:02
*To:* [email protected]
*Subject:* Re: [PSES] Resend of complete message on ESD thoughts
Good points John.
On Mon, Mar 6, 2023, 7:58 AM John Woodgate <[email protected]> wrote:
* This message originated outside of DISH and was sent by:
[email protected] ***
------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are two good points about 610000-4-2:the test results are
repeatable and products that pass the tests rarely suffer from ESD
failures in the field. But there are, even so, unresolved issues
and doubts about the relations between the tests and actual ESD
events. Because the present standard 'works', strong evidence
would be required to support a proposal for change, and that is
not forthcoming.
======================================================================================
Best wishes John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
www.woodjohn.uk
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Rayleigh, Essex UK
I hear, and I forget. I see, and I remember. I do, and I
understand. Xunzi (340 - 245 BC)
On 2023-03-06 14:48, Chas Grasso wrote:
Don't forget the seminal research done by WMKing on this
topic. He was I believe the first to measure the fast response
of an ESD event through a metal intervening object. Also, it
is understood that the ESD test was a consensus output in an
attempt to provide repeatability within test houses. King and
Hish also produced an ESD generator that accurately replicated
the research.
The current ESD test is a committee consensus output which
tried very hard to produce a test that could be consistent and
repeatable, while at the same time be as close as possible to
the actual event.
On Mon, Mar 6, 2023, 1:42 AM John Woodgate <[email protected]>
wrote:
* This message originated outside of DISH and was sent by:
[email protected] ***
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, 61000-4-2- is not very good, but while you are
reluctant to share your knowledge with the committee, it
is unlikely that anything will happen.
======================================================================================
Best wishes John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
www.woodjohn.uk
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Rayleigh, Essex UK
I hear, and I forget. I see, and I remember. I do, and I
understand. Xunzi (340 - 245 BC)
On 2023-03-06 04:14, doug emcesd.com
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wrote:
Hi All,
I have a few thoughts I would like to share with you
on ESD that have comes out of my private research into
the field in recent years.
1. A 2kV air discharge can be much more likely to
cause equipment malfunction than any other
discharge of any voltage.
2. There is no natural ESD event comparable to a
15-20+ kV contact discharge so why test for it?
That is designing for something that is extremely
unlikely at best.
3. The IEC61000-4-2 does not very well model real ESD
events at all. One example, my hand metal
discharge at 4 kV results a current spike at the
start of the discharge that is more than twice as
high as the standard specifies! This is very
repeatable.
The above is just a sample of the research I have
generated over the years. Seems like IEC 61000-4-2
needs an urgent overhaul as I believe engineers get a
false sense of security that passing the test means
reliable field performance, not even close!
Doug Smith
Sent from my iPhone
IPhone: 408-858-4528
Office: 702-570-6108
Email: [email protected]
Website: http://dsmith.org
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