On Feb 14, 2015 6:31 PM, "Richard" <richard.h...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > On Feb 14, 2015 5:29 PM, "Luke Leighton" <l...@lkcl.net> wrote: > > > > hellekin <hellekin <at> dyne.org> writes: > > > > > > > > On 02/14/2015 10:16 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > > > > On Sat, Feb 14, 2015 at 8:12 AM, KatolaZ <katolaz <at> freaknet.org> wrote: > > > >> On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 04:01:58PM +0000, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton > > wrote: > > > > > > > >>> is it the intent of the devuan team to: > > > >>> > > > >>> (a) create a "fork" which will always, at all times, without fail, > > > >>> require that a debian repo be placed in /etc/apt/sources.list > > > >>> > > > >>> or > > > >>> > > > >>> (b) create a "fork" of the *entire debian package repository*, such > > > >>> that it will end up over time to be as completely incompatible with > > > >>> debian as ubuntu is today. > > > > > > > *** From > > > https://git.devuan.org/devuan/devuan-project/wikis/ProjectDescription > > > > > > "Devuan is born for a simple goal: having a systemd-free debian jessie > > > to preserve freedom choice on init and decoupling between init and the > > > rest of the system ... initially, it will NOT be a complete fork, but > > > just a complete infrastructure to distribute a personalized version of > > > debian jessie, testing and unstable where some packages from us will be > > > pinned up on top of the debian repositories..." > > > > ok, great. whilst it's close, it still doesn't clearly answer the > > question, though, and i notice, also, that the above is not made clear > > on the web site. > > > > in other words, there are a lot of words on the main http://devuan.org > > web site but nothing that's definitive. a lot of position statements > > and aims, but nothing concrete. > > > > to illustrate the difference, let's rewrite the above: > > > > "Devuan has a simple goal: to make it easy for Debian users to > > entirely remove systemd yet to keep their Debian systems fully > > functional, up-to-date and fully compatible with Debian. > > > > The initial method to achieve this will be to add one extra line to > > sources.list (in a similar fashion to deb-multimedia), where key > > strategic packages can then be replaced with systemd-free equivalents > > by simply running 'apt-get upgrade' > > > > Our immediate goal is to provide automated transition scripts integrated > > into the replacement packages for debian jessie, testing and unstable, > > and to maintain them indefinitely. > > > > Whilst it may prove unavoidable, we seek to actively avoid a complete > > fork of Debian (learning the lessons from Ubuntu), not least because > > we wish to make it easy for users to transition between Devuan and > > Debian (with and without systemd) and we appreciate that a complete > > fork would make that much more challenging." > > > > > > hellenkin: can you see the difference between that and what's on the > > wiki (and on the web site)? > > > > what i wrote makes the following things very clear: > > > > 1) your debian system will not be screwed up or compromised by using > > devuan. you will also not lose any functionality or packages. > > > > 2) we understand the difficulty of maintaining an entire distro. > > we implicitly understand that we will not get to 1,000 maintainers > > in the immediate future, so we are being realistic and will not > > be doing a complete fork. it's too much effort for us, and we > > recognise that you probably wouldn't trust us (i.e. wouldn't > > even want to *try* upgrading to devuan) if we created one. > > > > 3) we're restricting the scope of what we're doing to a few key > > strategic packages, and we're going to make it easy for you to > > remove systemd. that's our core focus. > > > > and a few more things, besides. > > > > if you recall, i said that my initial concern was that devuan was > > giving serious consideration to including TDE and many other things > > besides. i've tried TDE: it works... but because it has to replace > > one of the key packages (which they haven't kept up-to-date > > because they don't have enough resources) i am now in "package > > dependency hell" even though i have specified to use the debian/testing > > version of TDE. > > > > this is a common problem that anyone who has regularly upgraded > > a debian/testing system that uses deb-multimedia will be familiar with: > > packages from two disparate repositories are *NOT* properly kept in > > sync: it's simply not possible. at one point back when ffmpeg was > > depending on versions 0.49 of libav and friends, my system went into > > complete melt-down due to broken package dependencies. i couldn't > > upgrade *anything* because of it. in the end i had to remove > > deb-multimedia entirely, compile some of the packages from source (!) > > to do what i needed to do, and i waited about 6 months for things to > > stabilise before beginning again. > > > > [note: with deb-multimedia i was lucky because it was not key strategic > > packages, i *could* remove them. if it had been anything in the core > > packages - the essential ones - i would have been *really* screwed. > > and that's really the whole point of why i seek clarity on what it is > > that you are doing, here]. > > > > with a small (busy) team, you are stuck in the middle between a rock > > and a hard place. > > > > on one hand you need to keep the alternative packages fully up-to-date: > > even *one day* late means that people will have a system which becomes > > unuseable due to version-bumps from debian. > > > > and on the other hand you have to consider doing a complete total fork > > of debian, with all that that implies (and it's one HELL of a lot of > > work to replace 1,000 debian maintainers with however many people you > > have), *and* you have to have decent mirror infrastructure - i think > > 160 Gb was the last estimate of the amount of disk space that i heard > > phil was using for free.hands.com's debian mirrors (a couple years back). > > and free.hands.com i believe also flat-lines a 100mbit/sec ethernet > > connection at 100% capacity. > > > > so. > > > > can i recommend that you discuss amongst yourselves within the devuan > > team as to precisely and exactly what the direction is? can we have > > a consensus from the team as to whether everyone understands fully the > > scope of the project, outlines a clear roadmap (and agrees to it), and > > so on? > > > > and once that is agreed can i suggest updating the web site to make > > that consensus absolutely clear? > > > > tia, > > > > l. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Dng mailing list > > Dng@lists.dyne.org > > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Thanks, for your insights. This is useful information. Looking forward to Devuan-0.1. Gmail on Android is limiting. Richard.
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