+1 for the deprecation but let me raise one more point that we have discovered in our training exercises:
All our training jobs that aim for high throughput run slower on Java 11 than on Java 8! That may not be a general problem for the various applications in the wild, but it could be and this should definitely be investigated. @Piotr I guess that could be investigated along with an update of flink- benchmarks to run on Java 11 as well... Nico On Thursday, 25 November 2021 22:08:58 CET Till Rohrmann wrote: > +1 for the deprecation and reaching out to the user ML to ask for feedback > from our users. Thanks for driving this Chesnay! > > Cheers, > Till > > On Thu, Nov 25, 2021 at 10:15 AM Roman Khachatryan <ro...@apache.org> wrote: > > The situation is probably a bit different now compared to the previous > > upgrade: some users might be using Amazon Coretto (or other builds) > > which have longer support. > > > > Still +1 for deprecation to trigger migration, and thanks for bringing > > this up! > > > > Regards, > > Roman > > > > On Thu, Nov 25, 2021 at 10:09 AM Arvid Heise <ar...@apache.org> wrote: > > > +1 to deprecate Java 8, so we can hopefully incorporate the module > > > > concept > > > > > in Flink. > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 25, 2021 at 9:49 AM Chesnay Schepler <ches...@apache.org> > > > > wrote: > > > > Users can already use APIs from Java 8/11. > > > > > > > > On 25/11/2021 09:35, Francesco Guardiani wrote: > > > > > +1 with what both Ingo and Matthias sad, personally, I cannot wait > > > > > to > > > > > > > > start using some of > > > > > > > > > the APIs introduced in Java 9. And I'm pretty sure that's the same > > > > for > > > > > > our users as well. > > > > > > > > > On Tuesday, 23 November 2021 13:35:07 CET Ingo Bürk wrote: > > > > >> Hi everyone, > > > > >> > > > > >> continued support for Java 8 can also create project risks, e.g. if > > > > a > > > > > > >> vulnerability arises in Flink's dependencies and we cannot upgrade > > > > them > > > > > > >> because they no longer support Java 8. Some projects already > > > > >> started > > > > >> deprecating support as well, like Kafka, and other projects will > > > > likely > > > > > > >> follow. > > > > >> Let's also keep in mind that the proposal here is not to drop > > > > support > > > > > > right > > > > > > > > >> away, but to deprecate it, send the message, and motivate users to > > > > start > > > > > > >> migrating. Delaying this process could ironically mean users have > > > > less > > > > > > time > > > > > > > > >> to prepare for it. > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> Ingo > > > > >> > > > > >> On Tue, Nov 23, 2021 at 8:54 AM Matthias Pohl < > > > > matth...@ververica.com> > > > > > > >> wrote: > > > > >>> Thanks for constantly driving these maintenance topics, Chesnay. > > > > >>> +1 > > > > > > > > from > > > > > > > > >>> my > > > > >>> side for deprecating Java 8. I see the point Jingsong is raising. > > > > But I > > > > > > >>> agree with what David already said here. Deprecating the Java > > > > version > > > > > > is a > > > > > > > > >>> tool to make users aware of it (same as starting this discussion > > > > > > > > thread). > > > > > > > > >>> If there's no major opposition against deprecating it in the > > > > community > > > > > > we > > > > > > > > >>> should move forward in this regard to make the users who do not > > > > >>> regularly browse the mailing list aware of it. That said, > > > > deprecating > > > > > > Java > > > > > > > > >>> 8 in 1.15 does not necessarily mean that it is dropped in 1.16. > > > > >>> > > > > >>> Best, > > > > >>> Matthias > > > > >>> > > > > >>> On Tue, Nov 23, 2021 at 8:46 AM David Morávek <d...@apache.org> > > > > wrote: > > > > >>>> Thank you Chesnay for starting the discussion! This will generate > > > > bit > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > >>> a > > > > >>> > > > > >>>> work for some users, but it's a good thing to keep moving the > > > > project > > > > > > >>>> forward. Big +1 for this. > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> Jingsong: > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> Receiving this signal, the user may be unhappy because his > > > > application > > > > > > >>>>> may be all on Java 8. Upgrading is a big job, after all, many > > > > systems > > > > > > >>>>> have not been upgraded yet. (Like you said, HBase and Hive) > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> The whole point of deprecation is to raise awareness, that this > > > > will > > > > > > be > > > > > > > > >>>> happening eventually and users should take some steps to address > > > > this > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > >>>> medium-term. If I understand Chesnay correctly, we'd still keep > > > > Java 8 > > > > > > >>>> around for quite some time to give users enough time to upgrade, > > > > but > > > > > > >>>> without raising awareness we'd fight the very same argument later > > > > in > > > > > > >>> time. > > > > >>> > > > > >>>> All of the prerequisites from 3rd party projects for both HBase > > > > [1] > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > >>>> Hive [2] to fully support Java 11 have been completed, so the > > > > ball is > > > > > > on > > > > > > > > >>>> their side and there doesn't seem to be much activity. Generating > > > > bit > > > > > > >>> more > > > > >>> > > > > >>>> pressure on these efforts might be a good thing. > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> It would be great to identify some of these users and learn bit > > > > more > > > > > > >>> about > > > > >>> > > > > >>>> their situation. Are they keeping up with latest Flink > > > > developments or > > > > > > >>> are > > > > >>> > > > > >>>> they lagging behind (this would also give them way more time for > > > > >>>> eventual > > > > >>>> upgrade)? > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> [1] https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/HBASE-22972 > > > > >>>> [2] https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/HIVE-22415 > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> Best, > > > > >>>> D. > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> On Tue, Nov 23, 2021 at 3:08 AM Jingsong Li < > > > > jingsongl...@gmail.com> > > > > > > >>>> wrote: > > > > >>>>> Hi Chesnay, > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>> Thanks for bringing this for discussion. > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>> We should dig deeper into the current Java version of Flink > > > > users. At > > > > > > >>>>> least make sure Java 8 is not a mainstream version. > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>> Receiving this signal, the user may be unhappy because his > > > > > > > > application > > > > > > > > >>>>> may be all on Java 8. Upgrading is a big job, after all, many > > > > systems > > > > > > >>>>> have not been upgraded yet. (Like you said, HBase and Hive) > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>> In my opinion, it is too early to deprecate support for Java 8. > > > > We > > > > > > >>>>> should wait for a safer point in time. > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>> On Mon, Nov 22, 2021 at 11:45 PM Ingo Bürk <i...@ververica.com> > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > >>>>>> Hi, > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> also a +1 from me because of everything Chesnay already said. > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> Ingo > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> On Mon, Nov 22, 2021 at 4:41 PM Martijn Visser < > > > > >>> > > > > >>> mart...@ververica.com> -- Dr. Nico Kruber | Solutions Architect Follow us @VervericaData Ververica -- Join Flink Forward - The Apache Flink Conference Stream Processing | Event Driven | Real Time -- Ververica GmbH | Invalidenstrasse 115, 10115 Berlin, Germany -- Ververica GmbH Registered at Amtsgericht Charlottenburg: HRB 158244 B Managing Directors: Yip Park Tung Jason, Jinwei (Kevin) Zhang, Karl Anton Wehner
