Thanks for the explanation. +1 for putting a bigger emphasis on performance on Java 11+. It would be great if Flink is already well prepared when users want to do the upgrade.
Best, Wenlong On Wed, 1 Dec 2021 at 16:54, Chesnay Schepler <ches...@apache.org> wrote: > That is correct, yes. During the deprecation period we won't seen any > improvements on our end. > > Something that I could envision is that the docker images will default to > Java 11 after a while, and that we put a bigger emphasis on performance on > Java 11+ than on Java 8. > > On 01/12/2021 02:31, wenlong.lwl wrote: > > hi, @Chesnay Schepler <ches...@apache.org> would you explain more about > what would happen when deprecating Java 8, but still support it. IMO, if we > still generate packages based on Java 8 which seems to be a consensus, > we still can not take the advantages you mentioned even if we announce that > Java 8 support is deprecated. > > > Best, > Wenlong > > On Mon, 29 Nov 2021 at 17:22, Marios Trivyzas <mat...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> +1 from me as well on the Java 8 deprecation! >> It's important to make the users aware, and "force" them but also the >> communities of other >> related projects (like the aforementioned Hive) to start preparing for the >> future drop of Java 8 >> support and the upgrade to the recent stable versions. >> >> >> On Sun, Nov 28, 2021 at 11:15 PM Thomas Weise <t...@apache.org> wrote: >> >> > +1 for Java 8 deprecation. It's an important signal for users and we >> > need to give sufficient time to adopt. Thanks Chesnay for starting the >> > discussion! Maybe user@ can be included into this discussion? >> > >> > Thomas >> > >> > >> > On Fri, Nov 26, 2021 at 6:49 AM Becket Qin <becket....@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> > > >> > > Thanks for raising the discussion, Chesnay. >> > > >> > > I think it is OK to deprecate Java 8 to let the users know that Java >> 11 >> > > migration should be put into the schedule. However, According to some >> of >> > > the statistics of the Java version adoption[1], a large number of >> users >> > are >> > > still using Java 8 in production. I doubt that Java 8 users will drop >> to >> > a >> > > negligible amount within the next 2 - 3 Flink releases. I would >> suggest >> > > making the time to drop Java 8 support flexible. >> > > >> > > Thanks, >> > > >> > > Jiangjie (Becket) Qin >> > > >> > > [1] https://www.infoq.com/news/2021/07/snyk-jvm-2021/ >> > > >> > > On Fri, Nov 26, 2021 at 5:09 AM Till Rohrmann <trohrm...@apache.org> >> > wrote: >> > > >> > > > +1 for the deprecation and reaching out to the user ML to ask for >> > feedback >> > > > from our users. Thanks for driving this Chesnay! >> > > > >> > > > Cheers, >> > > > Till >> > > > >> > > > On Thu, Nov 25, 2021 at 10:15 AM Roman Khachatryan < >> ro...@apache.org> >> > > > wrote: >> > > > >> > > > > The situation is probably a bit different now compared to the >> > previous >> > > > > upgrade: some users might be using Amazon Coretto (or other >> builds) >> > > > > which have longer support. >> > > > > >> > > > > Still +1 for deprecation to trigger migration, and thanks for >> > bringing >> > > > > this up! >> > > > > >> > > > > Regards, >> > > > > Roman >> > > > > >> > > > > On Thu, Nov 25, 2021 at 10:09 AM Arvid Heise <ar...@apache.org> >> > wrote: >> > > > > > >> > > > > > +1 to deprecate Java 8, so we can hopefully incorporate the >> module >> > > > > concept >> > > > > > in Flink. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > On Thu, Nov 25, 2021 at 9:49 AM Chesnay Schepler < >> > ches...@apache.org> >> > > > > wrote: >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > Users can already use APIs from Java 8/11. >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > On 25/11/2021 09:35, Francesco Guardiani wrote: >> > > > > > > > +1 with what both Ingo and Matthias sad, personally, I >> cannot >> > wait >> > > > to >> > > > > > > start using some of >> > > > > > > > the APIs introduced in Java 9. And I'm pretty sure that's >> the >> > same >> > > > > for >> > > > > > > our users as well. >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > On Tuesday, 23 November 2021 13:35:07 CET Ingo Bürk wrote: >> > > > > > > >> Hi everyone, >> > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> continued support for Java 8 can also create project risks, >> > e.g. >> > > > if >> > > > > a >> > > > > > > >> vulnerability arises in Flink's dependencies and we cannot >> > upgrade >> > > > > them >> > > > > > > >> because they no longer support Java 8. Some projects >> already >> > > > started >> > > > > > > >> deprecating support as well, like Kafka, and other projects >> > will >> > > > > likely >> > > > > > > >> follow. >> > > > > > > >> Let's also keep in mind that the proposal here is not to >> drop >> > > > > support >> > > > > > > right >> > > > > > > >> away, but to deprecate it, send the message, and motivate >> > users to >> > > > > start >> > > > > > > >> migrating. Delaying this process could ironically mean >> users >> > have >> > > > > less >> > > > > > > time >> > > > > > > >> to prepare for it. >> > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> Ingo >> > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> On Tue, Nov 23, 2021 at 8:54 AM Matthias Pohl < >> > > > > matth...@ververica.com> >> > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> wrote: >> > > > > > > >>> Thanks for constantly driving these maintenance topics, >> > Chesnay. >> > > > +1 >> > > > > > > from >> > > > > > > >>> my >> > > > > > > >>> side for deprecating Java 8. I see the point Jingsong is >> > raising. >> > > > > But I >> > > > > > > >>> agree with what David already said here. Deprecating the >> Java >> > > > > version >> > > > > > > is a >> > > > > > > >>> tool to make users aware of it (same as starting this >> > discussion >> > > > > > > thread). >> > > > > > > >>> If there's no major opposition against deprecating it in >> the >> > > > > community >> > > > > > > we >> > > > > > > >>> should move forward in this regard to make the users who >> do >> > not >> > > > > > > >>> regularly browse the mailing list aware of it. That said, >> > > > > deprecating >> > > > > > > Java >> > > > > > > >>> 8 in 1.15 does not necessarily mean that it is dropped in >> > 1.16. >> > > > > > > >>> >> > > > > > > >>> Best, >> > > > > > > >>> Matthias >> > > > > > > >>> >> > > > > > > >>> On Tue, Nov 23, 2021 at 8:46 AM David Morávek < >> > d...@apache.org> >> > > > > wrote: >> > > > > > > >>>> Thank you Chesnay for starting the discussion! This will >> > > > generate >> > > > > bit >> > > > > > > of >> > > > > > > >>> a >> > > > > > > >>> >> > > > > > > >>>> work for some users, but it's a good thing to keep moving >> > the >> > > > > project >> > > > > > > >>>> forward. Big +1 for this. >> > > > > > > >>>> >> > > > > > > >>>> Jingsong: >> > > > > > > >>>> >> > > > > > > >>>> Receiving this signal, the user may be unhappy because >> his >> > > > > application >> > > > > > > >>>> >> > > > > > > >>>>> may be all on Java 8. Upgrading is a big job, after all, >> > many >> > > > > systems >> > > > > > > >>>>> have not been upgraded yet. (Like you said, HBase and >> Hive) >> > > > > > > >>>> The whole point of deprecation is to raise awareness, >> that >> > this >> > > > > will >> > > > > > > be >> > > > > > > >>>> happening eventually and users should take some steps to >> > address >> > > > > this >> > > > > > > in >> > > > > > > >>>> medium-term. If I understand Chesnay correctly, we'd >> still >> > keep >> > > > > Java 8 >> > > > > > > >>>> around for quite some time to give users enough time to >> > upgrade, >> > > > > but >> > > > > > > >>>> without raising awareness we'd fight the very same >> argument >> > > > later >> > > > > in >> > > > > > > >>> time. >> > > > > > > >>> >> > > > > > > >>>> All of the prerequisites from 3rd party projects for both >> > HBase >> > > > > [1] >> > > > > > > and >> > > > > > > >>>> Hive [2] to fully support Java 11 have been completed, so >> > the >> > > > > ball is >> > > > > > > on >> > > > > > > >>>> their side and there doesn't seem to be much activity. >> > > > Generating >> > > > > bit >> > > > > > > >>> more >> > > > > > > >>> >> > > > > > > >>>> pressure on these efforts might be a good thing. >> > > > > > > >>>> >> > > > > > > >>>> It would be great to identify some of these users and >> learn >> > bit >> > > > > more >> > > > > > > >>> about >> > > > > > > >>> >> > > > > > > >>>> their situation. Are they keeping up with latest Flink >> > > > > developments or >> > > > > > > >>> are >> > > > > > > >>> >> > > > > > > >>>> they lagging behind (this would also give them way more >> > time for >> > > > > > > >>>> eventual >> > > > > > > >>>> upgrade)? >> > > > > > > >>>> >> > > > > > > >>>> [1] https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/HBASE-22972 >> > > > > > > >>>> [2] https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/HIVE-22415 >> > > > > > > >>>> >> > > > > > > >>>> Best, >> > > > > > > >>>> D. >> > > > > > > >>>> >> > > > > > > >>>> On Tue, Nov 23, 2021 at 3:08 AM Jingsong Li < >> > > > > jingsongl...@gmail.com> >> > > > > > > >>>> >> > > > > > > >>>> wrote: >> > > > > > > >>>>> Hi Chesnay, >> > > > > > > >>>>> >> > > > > > > >>>>> Thanks for bringing this for discussion. >> > > > > > > >>>>> >> > > > > > > >>>>> We should dig deeper into the current Java version of >> Flink >> > > > > users. At >> > > > > > > >>>>> least make sure Java 8 is not a mainstream version. >> > > > > > > >>>>> >> > > > > > > >>>>> Receiving this signal, the user may be unhappy because >> his >> > > > > > > application >> > > > > > > >>>>> may be all on Java 8. Upgrading is a big job, after all, >> > many >> > > > > systems >> > > > > > > >>>>> have not been upgraded yet. (Like you said, HBase and >> Hive) >> > > > > > > >>>>> >> > > > > > > >>>>> In my opinion, it is too early to deprecate support for >> > Java 8. >> > > > > We >> > > > > > > >>>>> should wait for a safer point in time. >> > > > > > > >>>>> >> > > > > > > >>>>> On Mon, Nov 22, 2021 at 11:45 PM Ingo Bürk < >> > i...@ververica.com >> > > > > >> > > > > > > wrote: >> > > > > > > >>>>>> Hi, >> > > > > > > >>>>>> >> > > > > > > >>>>>> also a +1 from me because of everything Chesnay already >> > said. >> > > > > > > >>>>>> >> > > > > > > >>>>>> >> > > > > > > >>>>>> Ingo >> > > > > > > >>>>>> >> > > > > > > >>>>>> On Mon, Nov 22, 2021 at 4:41 PM Martijn Visser < >> > > > > > > >>> mart...@ververica.com> >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > >> >> >> -- >> Marios >> > >
