<div></div><div>Yeah. Very much agree with Owen.
<br/>
<br/>I think this is a very different situation than offensive use and
<br/>slogans. Also even if the association was in the minds of those who
<br/>started the ASF, it's missing even among the vast majority of the ASF
<br/>members. We cannot compare the sports teams which are actively
<br/>promoting their names and branding both internally and externally and
<br/>build "business" on using the names with the ASF that does not
<br/>actually do that at all. First - because there is no business to make,
<br/>and more importantly because the ASF simply does not use the Apache
<br/>name for any promotion - neither internalisation nor externalisation
<br/>of the name.
<br/>
<br/>I would say (of course I might not see perspective of all the people)
<br/>that the ripple effect on contributors does not exist, because ...
<br/>despite the official explanation of the origin and the feather - we,
<br/>the committers, contributors, PMC members and ASF members do not
<br/>consider ourselves as "Apache" people. We are members of the ASF which
<br/>does contain Apache in the name but we do not really claim or drive
<br/>any of our behaviours from the Tribe - and none of the ASF community
<br/>efforts have any notion of that. The ONLY loose relation is the
<br/>Feather. And while it might be somewhat difficult for ASF old-timers
<br/>to part with it - but for those who came later it's nothing but an
<br/>icon/logo that could be potentially replaced with another logo without
<br/>much of an impact. Just the fact that when we think (or at last it
<br/>looks like to me) that changing the Feather to something else is easy
<br/>and impact-less, means that we do not even think of ourselves as
<br/>"Apache's" in any way meaningful to the Tribe. And I think, this is
<br/>important that we do not have to even change this "thinking" as part
<br/>of any rebranding - because it is simply not there.
<br/>
<br/>This is in stark contrast with many other companies and organisations
<br/>which made a lot of internalisation and externalisation of their
<br/>branding and names. As an example - I have been for a while working at
<br/>Snowflake and there are lots and lots and lots of internalisation and
<br/>externalisation of "snow and snowflake" down to the internal use of
<br/>"fresh snow" when people are hired or "it's snowing in Warsaw" public
<br/>slogan when our company was acquired. The ASF does nothing of that
<br/>whatsoever.
<br/>
<br/>So really IMHO the Apache in the name of the ASF is just that - name
<br/>without the association.
<br/>
<br/>I seriously doubt a group of reasonable thinking individuals might
<br/>put-off by the fact that we "pretend" to be Apaches when we actually
<br/>don't. And - of course - we cannot please everyone, and there are some
<br/>people who might call it out in the name of political correctness.
<br/>This happens a lot of times nowadays. Both inside and outside people
<br/>might do it. It's inevitable and well - normal and there is nothing
<br/>wrong with that, to be honest. People have concerns, people express
<br/>them, and everyone is different, we have different backgrounds,
<br/>biases, opinions and associations in our heads. And we - as a group of
<br/>reasonable thinking members, should hear and listen to those voices.
<br/>
<br/>But also we should use our best judgment to see if those are real
<br/>problems or something that is really at most a slight annoyance for a
<br/>very small group of people and whether - by using the name we show any
<br/>disrespect or harm or even cut off ourselves from some opportunities
<br/>and people. There are (IMHO) no practical nor even emotional reasons
<br/>applicable to a wider or even quite small group of people in this case
<br/>that would justify the name change. Of course - we are not able to
<br/>satisfy everyone and respond to all individuals feeling differently,
<br/>but we can just do our best to show our respect and make a deliberate,
<br/>thoughtful discussion (like we do now :)) and carefully consider our
<br/>position, weight pros and cons and make a conscious decision as
<br/>members - what we do with those voices.
<br/>
<br/>I personally think (and when/if it comes to any voting that would be
<br/>my vote) that we do not show any disrespect or make any harm or even
<br/>put some people of if we stay with the Apache name as long as we
<br/>remove the association - which is a great opportunity as well to build
<br/>some engagement and common cause,
<br/>
<br/>Also when it comes to that I would love to be engaged and help in
<br/>making it happen in whatever way I might find myself useful - whatever
<br/>the directions the members choose.
<br/>
<br/>This is a good cause to spend time on. Showing respect and responding
<br/>(in reasonable scope) to concerns of people who feel bothered by the
<br/>current situation is cool. And a noble thing to do. We've been doing
<br/>it when we removed insensitive names from our code - eagerly - and
<br/>doing that for the ASF cause is really cool.
<br/>
<br/>J.
<br/>
<br/>On Sun, May 1, 2022 at 7:39 AM Owen Rubel <oru...@gmail.com> wrote:
<br/>>
<br/>> Well you may not need to.
<br/>>
<br/>> School and sports teams change their names because they are offensive
and
<br/>> the tribe registers a complaint.
<br/>>
<br/>> In the sense of the Apache foundation, I sincerely donut the tribe
will
<br/>> ever register an official complaint because it is a nonprofit that
does
<br/>> community outreach and gives away software.
<br/>>
<br/>> They do not put the tribes image in a poor light nor do they use
slogans,
<br/>> imagery that put the tribe in a poor light
<br/>>
<br/>> These are all things that would cause the Apache Nation to respond.
<br/>>
<br/>> The Apache Foundation has seemingly been a good steward so unless
someone
<br/>> from the Apache Nation provides an official complaint, I would not
worry.
<br/>>
<br/>> However... rebranding may be a good suggestion.
<br/>>
<br/>> Still some community outreach may be good so you can know if you even
<br/>> SHOULD start the path of rebranding; it may not even be necessary and
you
<br/>> can put it to rest once and for all if they see you as good stewards.,
<br/>>
<br/>> Owen Rubel
<br/>> oru...@gmail.com
<br/>>
<br/>>
<br/>> On Sat, Apr 30, 2022 at 5:49 AM Ed Mangini <m...@emangini.com>
wrote:
<br/>>
<br/>> > Creative!
<br/>> >
<br/>> > How do we change the original intent?
<br/>> >
<br/>> > Our website directly references the Apache tribe, and that data
point is
<br/>> > referenced in various web assets of which we have no control.
<br/>> >
<br/>> > This is where Andrew's notion of outreach would be absolutely
requisite to
<br/>> > determine if disassociation is enough. It might even require
sponsorship.
<br/>> >
<br/>> > We'd need careful wordsmithing.
<br/>> >
<br/>> >
<br/>> >
<br/>> >
<br/>> > On Sat, Apr 30, 2022, 05:03 Jarek Potiuk
<ja...@potiuk.com> wrote:
<br/>> >
<br/>> > > I think we all vastly underestimate the ripple effect such
a change might
<br/>> > > have.
<br/>> > > I do understand some of the sentiments of people who want
change.
<br/>> > >
<br/>> > > However, maybe there is an easier way to handle this issue.
<br/>> > >
<br/>> > > Do we really have to change the name or just disassociate
with the
<br/>> > > Apache Tribe ? I think the latter does not need name change
and will
<br/>> > > be few orders of magnitude easier and possible to do in a
few months
<br/>> > > rather than decades.
<br/>> > >
<br/>> > > For the vast majority of people in the software industry I
think, the
<br/>> > > "Apache Software Foundation" bears absolutely no relation
to the
<br/>> > > Apache Tribe. Why would it? Yeah originally it was a homage
to some of
<br/>> > > the qualities of the Apache Tribe as the origin of the name
is, and we
<br/>> > > do have the Feather which somewhat relates to the tribe.
But for all
<br/>> > > practical purposes and mental association there is no
relation between
<br/>> > > the two.
<br/>> > >
<br/>> > > I've been working in a trademark office for some time and
from how I
<br/>> > > understand how names and brands are considered and used -
"brands" and
<br/>> > > "names" can only be reserved in the "scope" they are
registered for.
<br/>> > > So all Apache brand and naming is valid in "software" (and
there the
<br/>> > > foundation obviously is associated with the name) - but
there is
<br/>> > > nothing wrong (at least in the brand/trademark world) to
have another
<br/>> > > "Apache" registered for another business (think
Helicopters). Of
<br/>> > > course tribe is not a business, but I think the laws of
trademark are
<br/>> > > simply reflecting the way people think about names and
brands.
<br/>> > >
<br/>> > > While originally people who created The ASF have thought
about some
<br/>> > > qualities associated with the Apache Tribe, true, but I
think this was
<br/>> > > a very "loose" connection. Over the years Apache and The
ASF actually
<br/>> > > "created from scratch" the meaning of the "Apache" word in
the
<br/>> > > software industry. In this industry there is no "Apache
Tribe" and
<br/>> > > never was, there is no other "Apache". What's even more -
those
<br/>> > > qualities and properties chosen back there are not even the
ones that
<br/>> > > bind the Apache Software Foundation together ("community
over code").
<br/>> > > I think there was no real bad effect in the past that ASF
would
<br/>> > > somewhat create for the tribe, but - more importantly -
there was no
<br/>> > > piggy-backing I think. Since the name Apache was not really
known in
<br/>> > > the industry, and the association with the Tribe was mostly
in the
<br/>> > > minds of the people who created it and not in the minds of
the users,
<br/>> > > you cannot really say that the ASF "abused" the name to
build its
<br/>> > > position or otherwise build its reputation based on the
Tribe itself.
<br/>> > > In a way it was just a name, one of many, that people
creating the ASF
<br/>> > > could choose, and it was more for them than for the
external world.
<br/>> > > Then they worked 20 years to build the quality and
reputation of the
<br/>> > > "Apache" name in the software industry - without any
piggybacking or
<br/>> > > abusing of the association, I think. So in a way expecting
to throw
<br/>> > > back these 20 years of brand-building in a completely new
industry is
<br/>> > > not really too "symmetrical" I believe.
<br/>> > >
<br/>> > > Since the connection is so "loose", I would say we have the
option to
<br/>> > > simply formally disassociate the meaning from the Tribe but
leave the
<br/>> > > name Apache with the foundation.
<br/>> > >
<br/>> > > Why don't we simply:
<br/>> > >
<br/>> > > * change the explanation of the name (And figure out some
nice acronym
<br/>> > > that APACHE might stand for - we can even vote on some
proposals
<br/>> > > there).
<br/>> > > * remove the Feather from the logo and replace it with
something more
<br/>> > > abstract (yet another opportunity to get some members
energized around
<br/>> > > proposing and voting for a new logo)
<br/>> > > * ask the few projects that might get an explicit
association with the
<br/>> > > Tribe (Arrow? Geronimo?) to change their names - that will
be
<br/>> > > immensely easier than changing the Foundation name
<br/>> > > * to formally disassociate the meaning while also adding a
homage for
<br/>> > > the past association to the Tribe while we are separating
the meaning
<br/>> > >
<br/>> > > Of course - maybe I just do not understand the feelings,
and desired
<br/>> > > of those who feel strongly about the association, but I
think the fact
<br/>> > > of life is that the same names might mean different things,
and in the
<br/>> > > software industry "Apache" is the foundation. In the
"People's"
<br/>> > > business - it's the Tribe. Why don't we formally separate
those two
<br/>> > > simply?
<br/>> > >
<br/>> > > J.
<br/>> > >
<br/>> > >
<br/>> > > On Sat, Apr 30, 2022 at 1:31 AM me
<m...@emangini.com> wrote:
<br/>> > > >
<br/>> > > > 100% with you about the mechanics of a poll.
<br/>> > > >
<br/>> > > > It is absolutely necessary to have a clearly defined
goal, hypothesis,
<br/>> > > etc. before we can drive a poll. I think coming up with
those questions
<br/>> > is
<br/>> > > part of what we’re chatting about. That in itself can
be a challenge. I
<br/>> > > agree about multiple options. (That’s where I was
going w/ a Likert
<br/>> > scale).
<br/>> > > >
<br/>> > > > In terms of LOE, there might be ways to mitigate some
of the burden.
<br/>> > DEI
<br/>> > > efforts have never been as important to people as they are
right now.
<br/>> > There
<br/>> > > are a lot of orgs willing to invest in that. Fundraising
can easily turn
<br/>> > > into contracting fees. (I also work for a pretty large
global consultancy
<br/>> > > whose core values are heavily focused on DEI, I’d be
happy to socialize
<br/>> > the
<br/>> > > effort. PMs, Devs, UX, CX, and so on. )
<br/>> > > >
<br/>> > > >
<br/>> > > > From: Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com>
<br/>> > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org
<dev@community.apache.org>
<br/>> > > > Date: April 29, 2022 at 18:21:26
<br/>> > > > To: dev@community.apache.org
<dev@community.apache.org>
<br/>> > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
<br/>> > > >
<br/>> > > > Schools and sports teams changing their names is
trivial in comparison
<br/>> > > > to the scope of work here. How many schools or sports
teams have their
<br/>> > > > name as part of APIs? This is on the level of
deprecating .com in DNS
<br/>> > > > in favor of something else.
<br/>> > > >
<br/>> > > > The concrete ideas like a new logo sound far more
tractable, as would
<br/>> > > > things like no longer allowing new ASF projects to
name themselves
<br/>> > > > after native culture.
<br/>> > > >
<br/>> > > > As for a poll about willingness to change the name, I
don't think
<br/>> > > > there will be useful results from such a poll without
a more specific
<br/>> > > > set of questions. Perhaps aiming it towards a spectrum
of options on
<br/>> > > > how to proceed with one end being no change and the
other end being
<br/>> > > > full rename could be useful? For example, suppose
there's much more
<br/>> > > > support in doing something like a logo change versus a
name change; it
<br/>> > > > wouldn't be productive to poll about binary options as
we wouldn't be
<br/>> > > > able to figure out which options may already be widely
supported.
<br/>> > > >
<br/>> > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 4:10 PM Walter Cameron
<br/>> > > > <walter.li...@waltercameron.com> wrote:
<br/>> > > > >
<br/>> > > > > I'm encouraged by the appetite for change
expressed here, gunalchéesh
<br/>> > > to
<br/>> > > > > everyone for hearing me out and sharing your
ideas and fleshing out
<br/>> > > more of
<br/>> > > > > a plan.
<br/>> > > > >
<br/>> > > > > I agree with everyone here that it’s a
mountain of work to change the
<br/>> > > name,
<br/>> > > > > it took years to get us to this point and Myrle
is right it will take
<br/>> > > > > decades to correct. I’ll do whatever I can
and I’m sure others will
<br/>> > > also
<br/>> > > > > but decolonizing open source will take
generations. It took the
<br/>> > > Washington
<br/>> > > > > Football Team a few seasons to pick a new name.
I’m not saying a
<br/>> > > stopgap
<br/>> > > > > name is needed, but maybe just a commitment to
changing the name from
<br/>> > > the
<br/>> > > > > membership could be a first point added to
Myrle's outline. My gut
<br/>> > also
<br/>> > > > > says that despite the work, even the larger
software community would
<br/>> > > > > welcome a new name.
<br/>> > > > >
<br/>> > > > > I think Ed is right that educating and driving
the community to enact
<br/>> > > > > change will be a group effort. Maybe if a vote or
poll of the
<br/>> > > membership
<br/>> > > > > indicated an openness to change that would
encourage further effort
<br/>> > and
<br/>> > > > > volunteers to do the work. I know I’ve been
in a lot of groups where
<br/>> > > people
<br/>> > > > > knowingly went down the wrong path just because
they thought that’s
<br/>> > > what
<br/>> > > > > the group wanted, when really everyone was just
following everyone
<br/>> > > else and
<br/>> > > > > maybe ASF’s branding is just such a
situation.
<br/>> > > > >
<br/>> > > > > Walter
<br/>> > > > >
<br/>> > > > >
<br/>> > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 12:44 PM me
<m...@emangini.com> wrote:
<br/>> > > > >
<br/>> > > > > > I’m also willing to take on some of
the tasks. I do want to point
<br/>> > > out that
<br/>> > > > > > if we over-decompose the problem,
we’re just going to push the
<br/>> > > perception
<br/>> > > > > > of it being one problem that is too big to
too many problems. Many
<br/>> > > of the
<br/>> > > > > > tasks and work are going to fail into
categories, and there are
<br/>> > > going to be
<br/>> > > > > > many different ways to categorize the
problems (hopefully to
<br/>> > > minimize the
<br/>> > > > > > impact of some of those dependencies).
<br/>> > > > > >
<br/>> > > > > > I’m curious why there has to be one
single person to “drive” the
<br/>> > > effort.
<br/>> > > > > > If we have a sufficient number of people
(but not too many) that
<br/>> > are
<br/>> > > > > > willing to take on some of the tasks, why
can’t those tasks be to
<br/>> > > drive it
<br/>> > > > > > by committee?
<br/>> > > > > >
<br/>> > > > > >
<br/>> > > > > >
<br/>> > > > > > From: Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org>
<br/>> > > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org
<dev@community.apache.org>
<br/>> > > > > > Date: April 29, 2022 at 15:35:06
<br/>> > > > > > To: Community
<dev@community.apache.org>
<br/>> > > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the
name
<br/>> > > > > >
<br/>> > > > > > Walter,
<br/>> > > > > >
<br/>> > > > > > The assertion that we have paid staff, while
correct, isn't
<br/>> > > particularly
<br/>> > > > > > relevant to the question. All of the top
level leadership positions
<br/>> > > at
<br/>> > > > > > The
<br/>> > > > > > Foundation are unpaid volunteer roles,
including
<br/>> > > > > > * President,
<br/>> > > > > > * Executive Vice President,
<br/>> > > > > > * VP Infra,
<br/>> > > > > > * VP Brand,
<br/>> > > > > > * VP Fundraising,
<br/>> > > > > > * Treasurer,
<br/>> > > > > > * VP Legal,
<br/>> > > > > > * VP Conferences,
<br/>> > > > > > * VP Privacy.
<br/>> > > > > >
<br/>> > > > > > Contractors have contracts with (more or
less) well-defined scopes
<br/>> > > that
<br/>> > > > > > can't be expanded to include this kind of ad
hoc work, without
<br/>> > > contract
<br/>> > > > > > negotiations, and added costs.
<br/>> > > > > >
<br/>> > > > > > All of these volunteers are doing this work
in their free time
<br/>> > while
<br/>> > > also
<br/>> > > > > > doing the work the use to put food on their
family's tables.
<br/>> > > > > >
<br/>> > > > > > That having been said, my gut tells me that
the majority of The
<br/>> > > > > > Foundation
<br/>> > > > > > members agree that the name is sub-optimal.
People just don't know
<br/>> > > how to
<br/>> > > > > > fix it. IMO: The first step would be to
break the change you are
<br/>> > > asking
<br/>> > > > > > for down into steps small enough that people
can imagine taking
<br/>> > them
<br/>> > > on,
<br/>> > > > > > or
<br/>> > > > > > that it is possible to contract out under
the oversight of a
<br/>> > > volunteer.
<br/>> > > > > > Y'all check me, but I see:
<br/>> > > > > >
<br/>> > > > > > * Picking a new name and achieving consensus
that it's the right
<br/>> > > name.
<br/>> > > > > > * Legally changing the name of The
Foundation itself.
<br/>> > > > > > * Understanding how this affects the many
business relationships
<br/>> > the
<br/>> > > > > > Foundation has, and mitigating those effects.
<br/>> > > > > > * Designing new names and logos for the many
brands The Foundation
<br/>> > > owns,
<br/>> > > > > > including project branding (eg "Apache
Cassandra") the feather
<br/>> > logo,
<br/>> > > the
<br/>> > > > > > incubator logo, etc.
<br/>> > > > > > * Registering a new website domain.
<br/>> > > > > > * Namespaces/packages/artifact names/etc in
The Foundation's many
<br/>> > > > > > projects.
<br/>> > > > > > * Getting OSI approval for a new license
identical to "Apache
<br/>> > License
<br/>> > > > > > 2.0",
<br/>> > > > > > but under a new name. Getting that new
license listed in various
<br/>> > > license
<br/>> > > > > > pickers.
<br/>> > > > > > * Marketing the new name so that it reaches
a similar level of
<br/>> > > > > > recognition
<br/>> > > > > > as the old name.
<br/>> > > > > > * ...all the things I didn't think of.
<br/>> > > > > >
<br/>> > > > > > Some of this work will cross multiple
jurisdictions. For example
<br/>> > > there
<br/>> > > > > > has
<br/>> > > > > > already been significant effort that I don't
fully understand
<br/>> > > > > > establishing
<br/>> > > > > > Apache branding in China. Those efforts
would have to be restarted.
<br/>> > > You'd
<br/>> > > > > > need to get support from our Chinese members.
<br/>> > > > > >
<br/>> > > > > > There are dependencies between some of these
items. For example,
<br/>> > you
<br/>> > > > > > should get a new website domain before you
can change artifact
<br/>> > names.
<br/>> > > > > > Possibly you would leave old artifacts with
the old name, and only
<br/>> > > use
<br/>> > > > > > the
<br/>> > > > > > new name for new artifacts.
<br/>> > > > > >
<br/>> > > > > > Each of these tasks would touch a different
set of areas of The
<br/>> > > > > > Foundation. For example, legally changing
the Foundation's name
<br/>> > would
<br/>> > > > > > fall
<br/>> > > > > > under VP Legal. Infra would have to register
new domain names, and
<br/>> > > set up
<br/>> > > > > > redirects, including to the ApacheCon
domains. VP Conferences would
<br/>> > > have
<br/>> > > > > > to adjust the conference branding. VP
Fundraising might need to
<br/>> > > notify
<br/>> > > > > > all
<br/>> > > > > > of our sponsors. etc. All in all this would
be thousands of hours
<br/>> > of
<br/>> > > > > > work, that would need coordinating across
multiple volunteers who
<br/>> > are
<br/>> > > > > > interested in doing a good job, but not
necessarily able to respond
<br/>> > > to
<br/>> > > > > > tasks on deadlines. And at the end it would
certainly be impossible
<br/>> > > to
<br/>> > > > > > fully complete it, because for example,
changing package names
<br/>> > would
<br/>> > > > > > break
<br/>> > > > > > client code.
<br/>> > > > > >
<br/>> > > > > > Despite the complexity of the full change,
some of these tasks are
<br/>> > > > > > independent of the others and can be taken
on without an
<br/>> > expectation
<br/>> > > that
<br/>> > > > > > all tasks would be completed. For example,
registering a new domain
<br/>> > > name,
<br/>> > > > > > and developing a consensus that it can be
used instead of "apache"
<br/>> > > in new
<br/>> > > > > > projects might be possible without doing a
full-on name change.
<br/>> > > > > > Introducing the same license under a new
name might also be
<br/>> > > possible. And
<br/>> > > > > > replacing our logo with something more
respectful might also be
<br/>> > > possible
<br/>> > > > > > without touching anything else. To tease out
tasks like this would
<br/>> > > > > > require
<br/>> > > > > > someone with an interest in doing the hard
work of decomposing the
<br/>> > > > > > problem,
<br/>> > > > > > discovering which pieces are independently
solvable, developing
<br/>> > > consensus
<br/>> > > > > > that a change should be made, and then doing
each change itself.
<br/>> > > > > >
<br/>> > > > > > Please recognize that to fully complete what
I'm describing here
<br/>> > will
<br/>> > > > > > take
<br/>> > > > > > years, possibly more than a decade of work,
and that it will
<br/>> > probably
<br/>> > > > > > never
<br/>> > > > > > be fully completed, and that it will require
buy-in from hundreds,
<br/>> > > > > > possibly
<br/>> > > > > > thousands of people. To achieve full buy-in,
you'd need to convince
<br/>> > > > > > people
<br/>> > > > > > not only that the work is worth doing, but
also that you are in it
<br/>> > > for as
<br/>> > > > > > long as the task will take. With all that as
context: if someone is
<br/>> > > > > > willing to do that work of driving that
effort, then I'm willing to
<br/>> > > take
<br/>> > > > > > on
<br/>> > > > > > some individual tasks in the process that
fall within my area of
<br/>> > > > > > expertise. But I personally am not willing
to *drive* that effort,
<br/>> > > and I
<br/>> > > > > > haven't seen that anyone else is willing to
either.
<br/>> > > > > >
<br/>> > > > > > Walter, when someone replies "You want this
change, but are you
<br/>> > > willing
<br/>> > > > > > to
<br/>> > > > > > do the work?" this may be what they are
asking. Despite all of
<br/>> > that,
<br/>> > > your
<br/>> > > > > > statements about the disrespect of the name
and the logos, and some
<br/>> > > of
<br/>> > > > > > the
<br/>> > > > > > project names are valid. The hurt you
describe is real. And I wish
<br/>> > it
<br/>> > > > > > weren't so.
<br/>> > > > > >
<br/>> > > > > > Best Regards,
<br/>> > > > > > Myrle Krantz
<br/>> > > > > >
<br/>> > > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 8:24 PM Julian Hyde
<jh...@apache.org>
<br/>> > > wrote:
<br/>> > > > > >
<br/>> > > > > > > I think it would be useful to poll ASF
members' opinions. This
<br/>> > > would
<br/>> > > > > > > not be a vote (in the sense that any
action would result if the
<br/>> > > vote
<br/>> > > > > > > 'passes') even though we may choose to
implement the poll using
<br/>> > > STevE
<br/>> > > > > > > during a members meeting. It would
allow us to gauge where
<br/>> > opinions
<br/>> > > > > > > are, and track changes in members'
opinions over time.
<br/>> > > > > > >
<br/>> > > > > > > As others have noted, a discussion
followed by a vote would
<br/>> > likely
<br/>> > > be
<br/>> > > > > > > divisive, because the discussion would
be dominated by those with
<br/>> > > the
<br/>> > > > > > > most polarized opinions.
<br/>> > > > > > >
<br/>> > > > > > > Julian
<br/>> > > > > > >
<br/>> > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 10:36 AM me
<m...@emangini.com> wrote:
<br/>> > > > > > > >
<br/>> > > > > > > > Thanks Sam and Andrew for helping
provide visibility!
<br/>> > > > > > > >
<br/>> > > > > > > >
<br/>> > > > > > > >
<br/>> > > > > > > > From: Sam Ruby
<ru...@intertwingly.net>
<br/>> > > > > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org
<dev@community.apache.org>
<br/>> > > > > > > > Date: April 29, 2022 at 13:35:41
<br/>> > > > > > > > To: Apache Community Dev
<dev@community.apache.org>
<br/>> > > > > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to
change the name
<br/>> > > > > > > >
<br/>> > > > > > > > Moving board to bcc. Mixing public
and private mailing lists is
<br/>> > > not a
<br/>> > > > > > > > good idea.
<br/>> > > > > > > >
<br/>> > > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 12:48 PM
Andrew Musselman <
<br/>> > > a...@apache.org>
<br/>> > > > > > > wrote:
<br/>> > > > > > > > >
<br/>> > > > > > > > > Copying them now.
<br/>> > > > > > > > >
<br/>> > > > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 9:46
AM me <m...@emangini.com> wrote:
<br/>> > > > > > > > >
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > @Andrew,
<br/>> > > > > > > > > >
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > How do we engage the
board?
<br/>> > > > > > > > > >
<br/>> > > > > > > > > >
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > Ed Mangini
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > m...@emangini.com
<br/>> > > > > > > > > >
<br/>> > > > > > > > > >
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > From: Andrew Musselman
<a...@apache.org>
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > Reply:
dev@community.apache.org <dev@community.apache.org>
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > Date: April 29, 2022 at
12:44:28
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > To:
dev@community.apache.org <dev@community.apache.org>
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: It’s
time to change the name
<br/>> > > > > > > > > >
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at
8:28 AM me <m...@emangini.com>
<br/>> > wrote:
<br/>> > > > > > > > > >
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > Andrew,
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > >
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > I agree that
putting it to a member vote is possibly
<br/>> > > polarizing
<br/>> > > > > > > (and
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > premature).
That’s not really the intent here. A poll is
<br/>> > a
<br/>> > > > > > dipstick
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > effort
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > to check the
temperature before we reach strategy and
<br/>> > > tactics.
<br/>> > > > > > > Polling
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > is
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > more about
discovery.
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > >
<br/>> > > > > > > > > >
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > I think you'll get a
similar reaction from a poll.
<br/>> > > > > > > >
<br/>> > > > > > > > I personally think a poll is
premature. At the moment, you
<br/>> > don't
<br/>> > > have
<br/>> > > > > > > > a proposed name, scope, or size of
effort. Without a
<br/>> > definition,
<br/>> > > it
<br/>> > > > > > > > isn't clear what people will be
expressing support for (or
<br/>> > > against).
<br/>> > > > > > > > It is OK to leave some parts TBD
for a poll, but for a poll to
<br/>> > be
<br/>> > > > > > > > useful there needs to be some
substance.
<br/>> > > > > > > >
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > I’m all for
the outreach. For my own clarification, are
<br/>> > you
<br/>> > > > > > > looking at
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > this as a means of
defining boundaries on the effort,
<br/>> > > setting
<br/>> > > > > > > urgency
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > on
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > the efforts (or
some combination of both?)
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > >
<br/>> > > > > > > > > >
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > I think this is such an
expansive and encompassing topic
<br/>> > that
<br/>> > > > > > covers
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > almost
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > every aspect of the
operations of the foundation that it
<br/>> > > might be
<br/>> > > > > > > smart
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > for
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > the board to have a look
and build up a plan before doing
<br/>> > > any ad
<br/>> > > > > > hoc
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > outreach.
<br/>> > > > > > > > > >
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > Is this something
you’re willing to do or kick off?
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > >
<br/>> > > > > > > > > >
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > I personally don't have
bandwidth to participate in
<br/>> > > activities on
<br/>> > > > > > > this,
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > no.
<br/>> > > > > > > > > >
<br/>> > > > > > > > > >
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > Is there any reason
why we can’t move forward with both a
<br/>> > > poll
<br/>> > > > > > and
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > outreach?
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > >
<br/>> > > > > > > > > >
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > Again I think this is a
board decision but I am not a
<br/>> > lawyer.
<br/>> > > > > > > >
<br/>> > > > > > > > Board decision will come much
later. Meanwhile, many board
<br/>> > > members
<br/>> > > > > > > > watch this list.
<br/>> > > > > > > >
<br/>> > > > > > > > - Sam Ruby
<br/>> > > > > > > >
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > From: Andrew
Musselman <a...@apache.org>
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > Reply:
dev@community.apache.org <
<br/>> > dev@community.apache.org>
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > Date: April 29,
2022 at 10:14:05
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > To:
dev@community.apache.org <dev@community.apache.org>
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > Cc: Matt Sicker
<boa...@gmail.com>
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re:
It’s time to change the name
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > >
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > Speaking as someone
in the Pacific Northwest US, where we
<br/>> > > say
<br/>> > > > > > land
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > acknowledgement for
the Duwamish tribe at the beginning
<br/>> > of
<br/>> > > all
<br/>> > > > > > > school
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > events, meaning I
respect and understand the motivation
<br/>> > for
<br/>> > > > > > this:
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > >
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > I think simply
opening this up for a member vote will
<br/>> > > result in
<br/>> > > > > > an
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > unproductive
firefight. Reactions will range from
<br/>> > > enthusiastic
<br/>> > > > > > > sympathy
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > to
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > bewildered
annoyance to outright hostile accusations.
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > >
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > Can I propose an
outreach to some Apache tribe
<br/>> > governments
<br/>> > > so
<br/>> > > > > > we
<br/>> > > > > > > can
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > open
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > a
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > dialog with them
directly, and start to understand what
<br/>> > > their
<br/>> > > > > > > official
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > experience of the
ASF branding is?
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > >
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > Then we could
formulate a plan after some deliberation.
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > >
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > The plan could
include logo redesign if the feather
<br/>> > symbol
<br/>> > > is
<br/>> > > > > > > viewed as
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > insensitive, for
example, and other changes balanced with
<br/>> > > > > > > feasibility
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > and
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > community values.
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > >
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > Best
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > Andrew
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > >
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 29,
2022 at 6:29 AM me <m...@emangini.com>
<br/>> > > wrote:
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > >
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > @Christian
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > >
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > You’re
very welcome! I think an internal poll has a
<br/>> > > great way
<br/>> > > > > > of
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > defining
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > footholds.
It’s going to be hard to craft to avoid
<br/>> > > > > > confirmation
<br/>> > > > > > > bias,
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > but I
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > think
it’s definitely possible.
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > >
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > @Matt
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > >
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > I agree. There
is no doubt that this is something that
<br/>> > > would
<br/>> > > > > > > require
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > stages.
Approaching this “Big Bang” style is going to
<br/>> > > fail
<br/>> > > > > > pretty
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > quickly.
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > I’m
thinking the effort is going to be an amalgam of
<br/>> > the
<br/>> > > > > > > Washington
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > Redskins ->
Commanders effort + the migration from
<br/>> > JUnit
<br/>> > > 4 to
<br/>> > > > > > 5.
<br/>> > > > > > > This
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > definitely
hits on the “strategic” aspect of Sam’s
<br/>> > > initial
<br/>> > > > > > > questions.
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > >
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > I think we can
probably differentiate a brand change
<br/>> > and
<br/>> > > a
<br/>> > > > > > name
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > change
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > as
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > separate
efforts (or at the very least separate life
<br/>> > > cycles).
<br/>> > > > > > > Large
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > organizations
that acquire startups and small companies
<br/>> > > often
<br/>> > > > > > > rebrand
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > the
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > acquired
assets and their products to better fit their
<br/>> > > > > > > business/tech
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > strategy.
However, underlying assets (repos, docs,
<br/>> > > materials)
<br/>> > > > > > are
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > retrofit
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > at a slower
burn.
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > >
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > >
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > I think the
first action item is probably a poll. I’m
<br/>> > > happy
<br/>> > > > > > to
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > pair/mob
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > (virtually or
otherwise) on it with someone. Are there
<br/>> > > any
<br/>> > > > > > > particular
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > psychometrics
we’d like to leverage (i.e. Likert?)
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > >
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > @Walter, do
you want to take a first stab at a poll?
<br/>> > > Maybe we
<br/>> > > > > > > can put
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > together a
small tiger team to carry it out?
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > >
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > >
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > >
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > >
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > From: Matt
Sicker <boa...@gmail.com>
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > Reply:
dev@community.apache.org <
<br/>> > > dev@community.apache.org>
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > Date: April
28, 2022 at 18:45:07
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > To:
dev@community.apache.org <dev@community.apache.org
<br/>> > >
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re:
It’s time to change the name
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > >
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > Defining a
scope here is also fairly important. For
<br/>> > > example,
<br/>> > > > > > the
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > apache.org
domain name is fairly baked into a lot of
<br/>> > > > > > > unchangeable
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > places such as
Java package names, every single
<br/>> > released
<br/>> > > > > > > artifact,
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > the
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > software
license itself (which is used by tons of
<br/>> > people
<br/>> > > > > > outside
<br/>> > > > > > > of
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > ASF), all the
existing public URLs to things, email
<br/>> > > > > > addresses,
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > signing
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > keys, the
GitHub organization name, tons of
<br/>> > > infrastructure
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > configuration,
finance documents, corporate documents,
<br/>> > > > > > > trademarks,
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > and
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > surely other
areas I'm forgetting.
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > >
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > If we have a
name change and only update the places
<br/>> > where
<br/>> > > > > > it's
<br/>> > > > > > > easy
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > to
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > do so, the
name Apache will still be highly visible in
<br/>> > > tons
<br/>> > > > > > of
<br/>> > > > > > > key
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > areas for the
indefinite future. This isn't even
<br/>> > > considering
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > downstream
users of Apache software, either, who may or
<br/>> > > may
<br/>> > > > > > not
<br/>> > > > > > > adopt
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > a rename.
These are some of the fairly intractable
<br/>> > > concerns
<br/>> > > > > > I've
<br/>> > > > > > > had
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > about a name
change, and that's even after working with
<br/>> > > > > > another
<br/>> > > > > > > OSS
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > project that
went through a name change and still has
<br/>> > > tons of
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > references to
its old names due to compatibility
<br/>> > issues.
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > >
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Apr
28, 2022 at 3:49 PM Christian Grobmeier
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > >
<grobme...@apache.org> wrote:
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > >
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > >
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu,
Apr 28, 2022, at 22:19, me wrote:
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
Christian,
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Were
you thinking of an internal poll? That’s
<br/>> > > actually a
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > spectacular
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > idea.
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > >
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, that
was I was thinking. Basically a poll on
<br/>> > > members@,
<br/>> > > > > >
<br/>> > > > > > > since
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > (I
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > guess) members
would eventually decide on that
<br/>> > proposal.
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > >
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > How
do we go about kicking that off?
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > >
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > I am not
so sure either, but I guess writing the poll
<br/>> > > and
<br/>> > > > > > > proposing
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > it
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > to community@
would be a first step. Once decided on
<br/>> > the
<br/>> > > > > > > content we
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > could
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > vote on
sending it, and then send it to members@
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > >
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > Others
may have different ideas, but that is my first
<br/>> > > idea
<br/>> > > > > > on
<br/>> > > > > > > it.
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > >
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks
for calling my idea spectacular, it gives me a
<br/>> > > warm
<br/>> > > > > > > feeling,
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > since I didn't
think of it as such :)
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > >
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > Kind
regards,
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > Christian
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > >
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ed
Mangini
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
m...@emangini.com
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
From: Christian Grobmeier <grobme...@apache.org>
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
Reply: dev@community.apache.org <
<br/>> > > dev@community.apache.org>
<br/>> > > > > >
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
Date: April 28, 2022 at 15:43:04
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > To:
dev@community.apache.org <
<br/>> > > dev@community.apache.org>
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
Hello,
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
On Thu, Apr 28, 2022, at 20:57, me wrote:
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> The desire to make the change is definitely
<br/>> > > there. I
<br/>> > > > > > echo
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > Walter’s
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> passion and statements.
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
+1
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> I also agree w/ Sam that this isn’t going to be
<br/>> > > easy
<br/>> > > > > > to
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > accomplish.
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
+1
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> Perhaps a starting point would be to answer
<br/>> > these
<br/>> > > > > > > questions in
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > concert:
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> - what is the LOE to perform the
<br/>> > > rebranding/renaming?
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> - are there enough volunteers within the
<br/>> > > organization
<br/>> > > > > > > willing
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > to
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > participate?
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> - what does the community think?
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
>
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> I want to emphasize that this last question is a
<br/>> > > point
<br/>> > > > > > of
<br/>> > > > > > > no
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > return. If
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> we start creating surveys and asking about our
<br/>> > > brand,
<br/>> > > > > > it’s
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > going
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > to
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> chum the waters.
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
Agreed. I would have thought to make a poll in the
<br/>> > > > > > community
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > first-
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > briefly
explain the issue and see what the community
<br/>> > > > > > > (non-binding)
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > vote
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > is
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > - just
checking sentiments.
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
I am afraid there will be a lot of headwinds. But
<br/>> > > based
<br/>> > > > > > on
<br/>> > > > > > > the
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > outcome one
could decide if its more work to explain
<br/>> > the
<br/>> > > issue
<br/>> > > > > > or
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > actually
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > solve the
issue.
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
Also a quick poll could stir up some people who
<br/>> > are
<br/>> > > > > > > interested
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > in
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > helping.
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
Cheers,
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
Christian
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
>
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
>
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> From: Walter Cameron <
<br/>> > > walter.li...@waltercameron.com>
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> Reply: dev@community.apache.org <
<br/>> > > > > > dev@community.apache.org
<br/>> > > > > > > >
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> Date: April 28, 2022 at 01:29:03
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> To: dev@community.apache.org <
<br/>> > > dev@community.apache.org>
<br/>> > > > > >
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
>
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> On Wed, Apr 27, 2022 at 6:40 PM Sam Ruby <
<br/>> > > > > > > > > >
ru...@intertwingly.net>
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > >
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
>
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
>> Walter: what are you personally willing to
<br/>> > > volunteer
<br/>> > > > > > to
<br/>> > > > > > > do?
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > What
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > is
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
>> your plan? What resources do you need?
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
>
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
>
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> Honestly Sam the extent of my plan was to bring
<br/>> > > > > > attention
<br/>> > > > > > > to
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > this
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > issue and
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> the harms it’s caused. Beyond that I’m kinda
<br/>> > > winging
<br/>> > > > > > it
<br/>> > > > > > > but I
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > appreciate
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> your eagerness and openness to change. I had
<br/>> > > hoped I’d
<br/>> > > > > > > speak
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > up,
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > people
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> would finally pull their heads out of the sand
<br/>> > > and work
<br/>> > > > > > to
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > undo
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > the
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > harm
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> they’ve caused.
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
>
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> ASF’s brand violates its own CoC. You would
<br/>> > think
<br/>> > > that
<br/>> > > > > > > might
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > spur
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > effort
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> for change by those perpetuating the harm, but
<br/>> > if
<br/>> > > you
<br/>> > > > > > > want me
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > to
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > do
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > the
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> work I’ll do whatever I can. I’m not that
<br/>> > familiar
<br/>> > > > > > with
<br/>> > > > > > > the
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > details
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > of the
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> organization, surely not as familiar as one of
<br/>> > its
<br/>> > > > > > > Directors,
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > so
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > in
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > a lot
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> of ways I don’t fully understand the scope of
<br/>> > what
<br/>> > > > > > needs
<br/>> > > > > > > to be
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > done, but
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> I’m willing to volunteer a few weekends of my
<br/>> > > > > > rudimentary
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > technical
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > and
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> design skills to run a “Find & Replace…” and put
<br/>> > > > > > together
<br/>> > > > > > > a
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > new
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > logo or
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> whatever you think would be helpful in this
<br/>> > > effort. I
<br/>> > > > > > > haven’t
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > designed a
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> logo in probably 15 years but I’m willing to
<br/>> > give
<br/>> > > it a
<br/>> > > > > > > try.
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
>
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> I would have assumed that an organization with a
<br/>> > > paid
<br/>> > > > > > > staff
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > and
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > goals to
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> increase the diversity of its contributors and
<br/>> > > > > > continue
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > receiving
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > corporate
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> donations would understand that the costs of
<br/>> > > inaction
<br/>> > > > > > > outweigh
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > the
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > costs of
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> action here.
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
>
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> Let me know what else I can do to help.
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
>
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> Walter
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
<br/>> > > > > > > > > > > >
<br/>> > > > > > >
<br/>> > >
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