Well you may not need to.
School and sports teams change their names because they are offensive and
the tribe registers a complaint.
In the sense of the Apache foundation, I sincerely donut the tribe will
ever register an official complaint because it is a nonprofit that does
community outreach and gives away software.
They do not put the tribes image in a poor light nor do they use slogans,
imagery that put the tribe in a poor light
These are all things that would cause the Apache Nation to respond.
The Apache Foundation has seemingly been a good steward so unless someone
from the Apache Nation provides an official complaint, I would not worry.
However... rebranding may be a good suggestion.
Still some community outreach may be good so you can know if you even
SHOULD start the path of rebranding; it may not even be necessary and you
can put it to rest once and for all if they see you as good stewards.,
Owen Rubel
oru...@gmail.com
On Sat, Apr 30, 2022 at 5:49 AM Ed Mangini <m...@emangini.com> wrote:
> Creative!
>
> How do we change the original intent?
>
> Our website directly references the Apache tribe, and that data point is
> referenced in various web assets of which we have no control.
>
> This is where Andrew's notion of outreach would be absolutely requisite to
> determine if disassociation is enough. It might even require sponsorship.
>
> We'd need careful wordsmithing.
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Apr 30, 2022, 05:03 Jarek Potiuk <ja...@potiuk.com> wrote:
>
> > I think we all vastly underestimate the ripple effect such a change might
> > have.
> > I do understand some of the sentiments of people who want change.
> >
> > However, maybe there is an easier way to handle this issue.
> >
> > Do we really have to change the name or just disassociate with the
> > Apache Tribe ? I think the latter does not need name change and will
> > be few orders of magnitude easier and possible to do in a few months
> > rather than decades.
> >
> > For the vast majority of people in the software industry I think, the
> > "Apache Software Foundation" bears absolutely no relation to the
> > Apache Tribe. Why would it? Yeah originally it was a homage to some of
> > the qualities of the Apache Tribe as the origin of the name is, and we
> > do have the Feather which somewhat relates to the tribe. But for all
> > practical purposes and mental association there is no relation between
> > the two.
> >
> > I've been working in a trademark office for some time and from how I
> > understand how names and brands are considered and used - "brands" and
> > "names" can only be reserved in the "scope" they are registered for.
> > So all Apache brand and naming is valid in "software" (and there the
> > foundation obviously is associated with the name) - but there is
> > nothing wrong (at least in the brand/trademark world) to have another
> > "Apache" registered for another business (think Helicopters). Of
> > course tribe is not a business, but I think the laws of trademark are
> > simply reflecting the way people think about names and brands.
> >
> > While originally people who created The ASF have thought about some
> > qualities associated with the Apache Tribe, true, but I think this was
> > a very "loose" connection. Over the years Apache and The ASF actually
> > "created from scratch" the meaning of the "Apache" word in the
> > software industry. In this industry there is no "Apache Tribe" and
> > never was, there is no other "Apache". What's even more - those
> > qualities and properties chosen back there are not even the ones that
> > bind the Apache Software Foundation together ("community over code").
> > I think there was no real bad effect in the past that ASF would
> > somewhat create for the tribe, but - more importantly - there was no
> > piggy-backing I think. Since the name Apache was not really known in
> > the industry, and the association with the Tribe was mostly in the
> > minds of the people who created it and not in the minds of the users,
> > you cannot really say that the ASF "abused" the name to build its
> > position or otherwise build its reputation based on the Tribe itself.
> > In a way it was just a name, one of many, that people creating the ASF
> > could choose, and it was more for them than for the external world.
> > Then they worked 20 years to build the quality and reputation of the
> > "Apache" name in the software industry - without any piggybacking or
> > abusing of the association, I think. So in a way expecting to throw
> > back these 20 years of brand-building in a completely new industry is
> > not really too "symmetrical" I believe.
> >
> > Since the connection is so "loose", I would say we have the option to
> > simply formally disassociate the meaning from the Tribe but leave the
> > name Apache with the foundation.
> >
> > Why don't we simply:
> >
> > * change the explanation of the name (And figure out some nice acronym
> > that APACHE might stand for - we can even vote on some proposals
> > there).
> > * remove the Feather from the logo and replace it with something more
> > abstract (yet another opportunity to get some members energized around
> > proposing and voting for a new logo)
> > * ask the few projects that might get an explicit association with the
> > Tribe (Arrow? Geronimo?) to change their names - that will be
> > immensely easier than changing the Foundation name
> > * to formally disassociate the meaning while also adding a homage for
> > the past association to the Tribe while we are separating the meaning
> >
> > Of course - maybe I just do not understand the feelings, and desired
> > of those who feel strongly about the association, but I think the fact
> > of life is that the same names might mean different things, and in the
> > software industry "Apache" is the foundation. In the "People's"
> > business - it's the Tribe. Why don't we formally separate those two
> > simply?
> >
> > J.
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Apr 30, 2022 at 1:31 AM me <m...@emangini.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > 100% with you about the mechanics of a poll.
> > >
> > > It is absolutely necessary to have a clearly defined goal, hypothesis,
> > etc. before we can drive a poll. I think coming up with those questions
> is
> > part of what we’re chatting about. That in itself can be a challenge. I
> > agree about multiple options. (That’s where I was going w/ a Likert
> scale).
> > >
> > > In terms of LOE, there might be ways to mitigate some of the burden.
> DEI
> > efforts have never been as important to people as they are right now.
> There
> > are a lot of orgs willing to invest in that. Fundraising can easily turn
> > into contracting fees. (I also work for a pretty large global consultancy
> > whose core values are heavily focused on DEI, I’d be happy to socialize
> the
> > effort. PMs, Devs, UX, CX, and so on. )
> > >
> > >
> > > From: Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com>
> > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <dev@community.apache.org>
> > > Date: April 29, 2022 at 18:21:26
> > > To: dev@community.apache.org <dev@community.apache.org>
> > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > >
> > > Schools and sports teams changing their names is trivial in comparison
> > > to the scope of work here. How many schools or sports teams have their
> > > name as part of APIs? This is on the level of deprecating .com in DNS
> > > in favor of something else.
> > >
> > > The concrete ideas like a new logo sound far more tractable, as would
> > > things like no longer allowing new ASF projects to name themselves
> > > after native culture.
> > >
> > > As for a poll about willingness to change the name, I don't think
> > > there will be useful results from such a poll without a more specific
> > > set of questions. Perhaps aiming it towards a spectrum of options on
> > > how to proceed with one end being no change and the other end being
> > > full rename could be useful? For example, suppose there's much more
> > > support in doing something like a logo change versus a name change; it
> > > wouldn't be productive to poll about binary options as we wouldn't be
> > > able to figure out which options may already be widely supported.
> > >
> > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 4:10 PM Walter Cameron
> > > <walter.li...@waltercameron.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I'm encouraged by the appetite for change expressed here, gunalchéesh
> > to
> > > > everyone for hearing me out and sharing your ideas and fleshing out
> > more of
> > > > a plan.
> > > >
> > > > I agree with everyone here that it’s a mountain of work to change the
> > name,
> > > > it took years to get us to this point and Myrle is right it will take
> > > > decades to correct. I’ll do whatever I can and I’m sure others will
> > also
> > > > but decolonizing open source will take generations. It took the
> > Washington
> > > > Football Team a few seasons to pick a new name. I’m not saying a
> > stopgap
> > > > name is needed, but maybe just a commitment to changing the name from
> > the
> > > > membership could be a first point added to Myrle's outline. My gut
> also
> > > > says that despite the work, even the larger software community would
> > > > welcome a new name.
> > > >
> > > > I think Ed is right that educating and driving the community to enact
> > > > change will be a group effort. Maybe if a vote or poll of the
> > membership
> > > > indicated an openness to change that would encourage further effort
> and
> > > > volunteers to do the work. I know I’ve been in a lot of groups where
> > people
> > > > knowingly went down the wrong path just because they thought that’s
> > what
> > > > the group wanted, when really everyone was just following everyone
> > else and
> > > > maybe ASF’s branding is just such a situation.
> > > >
> > > > Walter
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 12:44 PM me <m...@emangini.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > I’m also willing to take on some of the tasks. I do want to point
> > out that
> > > > > if we over-decompose the problem, we’re just going to push the
> > perception
> > > > > of it being one problem that is too big to too many problems. Many
> > of the
> > > > > tasks and work are going to fail into categories, and there are
> > going to be
> > > > > many different ways to categorize the problems (hopefully to
> > minimize the
> > > > > impact of some of those dependencies).
> > > > >
> > > > > I’m curious why there has to be one single person to “drive” the
> > effort.
> > > > > If we have a sufficient number of people (but not too many) that
> are
> > > > > willing to take on some of the tasks, why can’t those tasks be to
> > drive it
> > > > > by committee?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > From: Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org>
> > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <dev@community.apache.org>
> > > > > Date: April 29, 2022 at 15:35:06
> > > > > To: Community <dev@community.apache.org>
> > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > > >
> > > > > Walter,
> > > > >
> > > > > The assertion that we have paid staff, while correct, isn't
> > particularly
> > > > > relevant to the question. All of the top level leadership positions
> > at
> > > > > The
> > > > > Foundation are unpaid volunteer roles, including
> > > > > * President,
> > > > > * Executive Vice President,
> > > > > * VP Infra,
> > > > > * VP Brand,
> > > > > * VP Fundraising,
> > > > > * Treasurer,
> > > > > * VP Legal,
> > > > > * VP Conferences,
> > > > > * VP Privacy.
> > > > >
> > > > > Contractors have contracts with (more or less) well-defined scopes
> > that
> > > > > can't be expanded to include this kind of ad hoc work, without
> > contract
> > > > > negotiations, and added costs.
> > > > >
> > > > > All of these volunteers are doing this work in their free time
> while
> > also
> > > > > doing the work the use to put food on their family's tables.
> > > > >
> > > > > That having been said, my gut tells me that the majority of The
> > > > > Foundation
> > > > > members agree that the name is sub-optimal. People just don't know
> > how to
> > > > > fix it. IMO: The first step would be to break the change you are
> > asking
> > > > > for down into steps small enough that people can imagine taking
> them
> > on,
> > > > > or
> > > > > that it is possible to contract out under the oversight of a
> > volunteer.
> > > > > Y'all check me, but I see:
> > > > >
> > > > > * Picking a new name and achieving consensus that it's the right
> > name.
> > > > > * Legally changing the name of The Foundation itself.
> > > > > * Understanding how this affects the many business relationships
> the
> > > > > Foundation has, and mitigating those effects.
> > > > > * Designing new names and logos for the many brands The Foundation
> > owns,
> > > > > including project branding (eg "Apache Cassandra") the feather
> logo,
> > the
> > > > > incubator logo, etc.
> > > > > * Registering a new website domain.
> > > > > * Namespaces/packages/artifact names/etc in The Foundation's many
> > > > > projects.
> > > > > * Getting OSI approval for a new license identical to "Apache
> License
> > > > > 2.0",
> > > > > but under a new name. Getting that new license listed in various
> > license
> > > > > pickers.
> > > > > * Marketing the new name so that it reaches a similar level of
> > > > > recognition
> > > > > as the old name.
> > > > > * ...all the things I didn't think of.
> > > > >
> > > > > Some of this work will cross multiple jurisdictions. For example
> > there
> > > > > has
> > > > > already been significant effort that I don't fully understand
> > > > > establishing
> > > > > Apache branding in China. Those efforts would have to be restarted.
> > You'd
> > > > > need to get support from our Chinese members.
> > > > >
> > > > > There are dependencies between some of these items. For example,
> you
> > > > > should get a new website domain before you can change artifact
> names.
> > > > > Possibly you would leave old artifacts with the old name, and only
> > use
> > > > > the
> > > > > new name for new artifacts.
> > > > >
> > > > > Each of these tasks would touch a different set of areas of The
> > > > > Foundation. For example, legally changing the Foundation's name
> would
> > > > > fall
> > > > > under VP Legal. Infra would have to register new domain names, and
> > set up
> > > > > redirects, including to the ApacheCon domains. VP Conferences would
> > have
> > > > > to adjust the conference branding. VP Fundraising might need to
> > notify
> > > > > all
> > > > > of our sponsors. etc. All in all this would be thousands of hours
> of
> > > > > work, that would need coordinating across multiple volunteers who
> are
> > > > > interested in doing a good job, but not necessarily able to respond
> > to
> > > > > tasks on deadlines. And at the end it would certainly be impossible
> > to
> > > > > fully complete it, because for example, changing package names
> would
> > > > > break
> > > > > client code.
> > > > >
> > > > > Despite the complexity of the full change, some of these tasks are
> > > > > independent of the others and can be taken on without an
> expectation
> > that
> > > > > all tasks would be completed. For example, registering a new domain
> > name,
> > > > > and developing a consensus that it can be used instead of "apache"
> > in new
> > > > > projects might be possible without doing a full-on name change.
> > > > > Introducing the same license under a new name might also be
> > possible. And
> > > > > replacing our logo with something more respectful might also be
> > possible
> > > > > without touching anything else. To tease out tasks like this would
> > > > > require
> > > > > someone with an interest in doing the hard work of decomposing the
> > > > > problem,
> > > > > discovering which pieces are independently solvable, developing
> > consensus
> > > > > that a change should be made, and then doing each change itself.
> > > > >
> > > > > Please recognize that to fully complete what I'm describing here
> will
> > > > > take
> > > > > years, possibly more than a decade of work, and that it will
> probably
> > > > > never
> > > > > be fully completed, and that it will require buy-in from hundreds,
> > > > > possibly
> > > > > thousands of people. To achieve full buy-in, you'd need to convince
> > > > > people
> > > > > not only that the work is worth doing, but also that you are in it
> > for as
> > > > > long as the task will take. With all that as context: if someone is
> > > > > willing to do that work of driving that effort, then I'm willing to
> > take
> > > > > on
> > > > > some individual tasks in the process that fall within my area of
> > > > > expertise. But I personally am not willing to *drive* that effort,
> > and I
> > > > > haven't seen that anyone else is willing to either.
> > > > >
> > > > > Walter, when someone replies "You want this change, but are you
> > willing
> > > > > to
> > > > > do the work?" this may be what they are asking. Despite all of
> that,
> > your
> > > > > statements about the disrespect of the name and the logos, and some
> > of
> > > > > the
> > > > > project names are valid. The hurt you describe is real. And I wish
> it
> > > > > weren't so.
> > > > >
> > > > > Best Regards,
> > > > > Myrle Krantz
> > > > >
> > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 8:24 PM Julian Hyde <jh...@apache.org>
> > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > I think it would be useful to poll ASF members' opinions. This
> > would
> > > > > > not be a vote (in the sense that any action would result if the
> > vote
> > > > > > 'passes') even though we may choose to implement the poll using
> > STevE
> > > > > > during a members meeting. It would allow us to gauge where
> opinions
> > > > > > are, and track changes in members' opinions over time.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > As others have noted, a discussion followed by a vote would
> likely
> > be
> > > > > > divisive, because the discussion would be dominated by those with
> > the
> > > > > > most polarized opinions.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Julian
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 10:36 AM me <m...@emangini.com> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks Sam and Andrew for helping provide visibility!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > From: Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net>
> > > > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <dev@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > > Date: April 29, 2022 at 13:35:41
> > > > > > > To: Apache Community Dev <dev@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Moving board to bcc. Mixing public and private mailing lists is
> > not a
> > > > > > > good idea.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 12:48 PM Andrew Musselman <
> > a...@apache.org>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Copying them now.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 9:46 AM me <m...@emangini.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > @Andrew,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > How do we engage the board?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Ed Mangini
> > > > > > > > > m...@emangini.com
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > From: Andrew Musselman <a...@apache.org>
> > > > > > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <dev@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > > > > Date: April 29, 2022 at 12:44:28
> > > > > > > > > To: dev@community.apache.org <dev@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 8:28 AM me <m...@emangini.com>
> wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Andrew,
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I agree that putting it to a member vote is possibly
> > polarizing
> > > > > > (and
> > > > > > > > > > premature). That’s not really the intent here. A poll is
> a
> > > > > dipstick
> > > > > > > > > effort
> > > > > > > > > > to check the temperature before we reach strategy and
> > tactics.
> > > > > > Polling
> > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > more about discovery.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I think you'll get a similar reaction from a poll.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I personally think a poll is premature. At the moment, you
> don't
> > have
> > > > > > > a proposed name, scope, or size of effort. Without a
> definition,
> > it
> > > > > > > isn't clear what people will be expressing support for (or
> > against).
> > > > > > > It is OK to leave some parts TBD for a poll, but for a poll to
> be
> > > > > > > useful there needs to be some substance.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I’m all for the outreach. For my own clarification, are
> you
> > > > > > looking at
> > > > > > > > > > this as a means of defining boundaries on the effort,
> > setting
> > > > > > urgency
> > > > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > > the efforts (or some combination of both?)
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I think this is such an expansive and encompassing topic
> that
> > > > > covers
> > > > > > > > > almost
> > > > > > > > > every aspect of the operations of the foundation that it
> > might be
> > > > > > smart
> > > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > the board to have a look and build up a plan before doing
> > any ad
> > > > > hoc
> > > > > > > > > outreach.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Is this something you’re willing to do or kick off?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I personally don't have bandwidth to participate in
> > activities on
> > > > > > this,
> > > > > > > > > no.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Is there any reason why we can’t move forward with both a
> > poll
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > outreach?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Again I think this is a board decision but I am not a
> lawyer.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Board decision will come much later. Meanwhile, many board
> > members
> > > > > > > watch this list.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > - Sam Ruby
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > From: Andrew Musselman <a...@apache.org>
> > > > > > > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <
> dev@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > > > > > Date: April 29, 2022 at 10:14:05
> > > > > > > > > > To: dev@community.apache.org <dev@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > > > > > Cc: Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Speaking as someone in the Pacific Northwest US, where we
> > say
> > > > > land
> > > > > > > > > > acknowledgement for the Duwamish tribe at the beginning
> of
> > all
> > > > > > school
> > > > > > > > > > events, meaning I respect and understand the motivation
> for
> > > > > this:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I think simply opening this up for a member vote will
> > result in
> > > > > an
> > > > > > > > > > unproductive firefight. Reactions will range from
> > enthusiastic
> > > > > > sympathy
> > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > bewildered annoyance to outright hostile accusations.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Can I propose an outreach to some Apache tribe
> governments
> > so
> > > > > we
> > > > > > can
> > > > > > > > > open
> > > > > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > dialog with them directly, and start to understand what
> > their
> > > > > > official
> > > > > > > > > > experience of the ASF branding is?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Then we could formulate a plan after some deliberation.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > The plan could include logo redesign if the feather
> symbol
> > is
> > > > > > viewed as
> > > > > > > > > > insensitive, for example, and other changes balanced with
> > > > > > feasibility
> > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > community values.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Best
> > > > > > > > > > Andrew
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 6:29 AM me <m...@emangini.com>
> > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > @Christian
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > You’re very welcome! I think an internal poll has a
> > great way
> > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > defining
> > > > > > > > > > > footholds. It’s going to be hard to craft to avoid
> > > > > confirmation
> > > > > > bias,
> > > > > > > > > > but I
> > > > > > > > > > > think it’s definitely possible.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > @Matt
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I agree. There is no doubt that this is something that
> > would
> > > > > > require
> > > > > > > > > > > stages. Approaching this “Big Bang” style is going to
> > fail
> > > > > pretty
> > > > > > > > > > quickly.
> > > > > > > > > > > I’m thinking the effort is going to be an amalgam of
> the
> > > > > > Washington
> > > > > > > > > > > Redskins -> Commanders effort + the migration from
> JUnit
> > 4 to
> > > > > 5.
> > > > > > This
> > > > > > > > > > > definitely hits on the “strategic” aspect of Sam’s
> > initial
> > > > > > questions.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I think we can probably differentiate a brand change
> and
> > a
> > > > > name
> > > > > > > > > change
> > > > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > > separate efforts (or at the very least separate life
> > cycles).
> > > > > > Large
> > > > > > > > > > > organizations that acquire startups and small companies
> > often
> > > > > > rebrand
> > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > acquired assets and their products to better fit their
> > > > > > business/tech
> > > > > > > > > > > strategy. However, underlying assets (repos, docs,
> > materials)
> > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > > retrofit
> > > > > > > > > > > at a slower burn.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I think the first action item is probably a poll. I’m
> > happy
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > pair/mob
> > > > > > > > > > > (virtually or otherwise) on it with someone. Are there
> > any
> > > > > > particular
> > > > > > > > > > > psychometrics we’d like to leverage (i.e. Likert?)
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > @Walter, do you want to take a first stab at a poll?
> > Maybe we
> > > > > > can put
> > > > > > > > > > > together a small tiger team to carry it out?
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > From: Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <
> > dev@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > > > > > > Date: April 28, 2022 at 18:45:07
> > > > > > > > > > > To: dev@community.apache.org <dev@community.apache.org
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Defining a scope here is also fairly important. For
> > example,
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > apache.org domain name is fairly baked into a lot of
> > > > > > unchangeable
> > > > > > > > > > > places such as Java package names, every single
> released
> > > > > > artifact,
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > software license itself (which is used by tons of
> people
> > > > > outside
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > ASF), all the existing public URLs to things, email
> > > > > addresses,
> > > > > > > > > signing
> > > > > > > > > > > keys, the GitHub organization name, tons of
> > infrastructure
> > > > > > > > > > > configuration, finance documents, corporate documents,
> > > > > > trademarks,
> > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > surely other areas I'm forgetting.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > If we have a name change and only update the places
> where
> > > > > it's
> > > > > > easy
> > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > do so, the name Apache will still be highly visible in
> > tons
> > > > > of
> > > > > > key
> > > > > > > > > > > areas for the indefinite future. This isn't even
> > considering
> > > > > > > > > > > downstream users of Apache software, either, who may or
> > may
> > > > > not
> > > > > > adopt
> > > > > > > > > > > a rename. These are some of the fairly intractable
> > concerns
> > > > > I've
> > > > > > had
> > > > > > > > > > > about a name change, and that's even after working with
> > > > > another
> > > > > > OSS
> > > > > > > > > > > project that went through a name change and still has
> > tons of
> > > > > > > > > > > references to its old names due to compatibility
> issues.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 28, 2022 at 3:49 PM Christian Grobmeier
> > > > > > > > > > > <grobme...@apache.org> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 28, 2022, at 22:19, me wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Christian,
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Were you thinking of an internal poll? That’s
> > actually a
> > > > > > > > > > spectacular
> > > > > > > > > > > idea.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, that was I was thinking. Basically a poll on
> > members@,
> > > > >
> > > > > > since
> > > > > > > > > (I
> > > > > > > > > > > guess) members would eventually decide on that
> proposal.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > How do we go about kicking that off?
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > I am not so sure either, but I guess writing the poll
> > and
> > > > > > proposing
> > > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > to community@ would be a first step. Once decided on
> the
> > > > > > content we
> > > > > > > > > > could
> > > > > > > > > > > vote on sending it, and then send it to members@
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Others may have different ideas, but that is my first
> > idea
> > > > > on
> > > > > > it.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for calling my idea spectacular, it gives me a
> > warm
> > > > > > feeling,
> > > > > > > > > > > since I didn't think of it as such :)
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Kind regards,
> > > > > > > > > > > > Christian
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Ed Mangini
> > > > > > > > > > > > > m...@emangini.com
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Christian Grobmeier <grobme...@apache.org>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <
> > dev@community.apache.org>
> > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: April 28, 2022 at 15:43:04
> > > > > > > > > > > > > To: dev@community.apache.org <
> > dev@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> Hello,
> > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> On Thu, Apr 28, 2022, at 20:57, me wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > The desire to make the change is definitely
> > there. I
> > > > > echo
> > > > > > > > > > Walter’s
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > passion and statements.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> +1
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > I also agree w/ Sam that this isn’t going to be
> > easy
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > accomplish.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> +1
> > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Perhaps a starting point would be to answer
> these
> > > > > > questions in
> > > > > > > > > > > concert:
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > - what is the LOE to perform the
> > rebranding/renaming?
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > - are there enough volunteers within the
> > organization
> > > > > > willing
> > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > participate?
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > - what does the community think?
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > I want to emphasize that this last question is a
> > point
> > > > > of
> > > > > > no
> > > > > > > > > > > return. If
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > we start creating surveys and asking about our
> > brand,
> > > > > it’s
> > > > > > > > > going
> > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > chum the waters.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> Agreed. I would have thought to make a poll in the
> > > > > community
> > > > > > > > > > first-
> > > > > > > > > > > briefly explain the issue and see what the community
> > > > > > (non-binding)
> > > > > > > > > vote
> > > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > - just checking sentiments.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> I am afraid there will be a lot of headwinds. But
> > based
> > > > > on
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > outcome one could decide if its more work to explain
> the
> > issue
> > > > > or
> > > > > > > > > > actually
> > > > > > > > > > > solve the issue.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> Also a quick poll could stir up some people who
> are
> > > > > > interested
> > > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > > helping.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> Cheers,
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> Christian
> > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > From: Walter Cameron <
> > walter.li...@waltercameron.com>
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <
> > > > > dev@community.apache.org
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Date: April 28, 2022 at 01:29:03
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > To: dev@community.apache.org <
> > dev@community.apache.org>
> > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > On Wed, Apr 27, 2022 at 6:40 PM Sam Ruby <
> > > > > > > > > ru...@intertwingly.net>
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Walter: what are you personally willing to
> > volunteer
> > > > > to
> > > > > > do?
> > > > > > > > > > What
> > > > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> your plan? What resources do you need?
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Honestly Sam the extent of my plan was to bring
> > > > > attention
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > this
> > > > > > > > > > > issue and
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > the harms it’s caused. Beyond that I’m kinda
> > winging
> > > > > it
> > > > > > but I
> > > > > > > > > > > appreciate
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > your eagerness and openness to change. I had
> > hoped I’d
> > > > > > speak
> > > > > > > > > up,
> > > > > > > > > > > people
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > would finally pull their heads out of the sand
> > and work
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > undo
> > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > harm
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > they’ve caused.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > ASF’s brand violates its own CoC. You would
> think
> > that
> > > > > > might
> > > > > > > > > > spur
> > > > > > > > > > > effort
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > for change by those perpetuating the harm, but
> if
> > you
> > > > > > want me
> > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > do
> > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > work I’ll do whatever I can. I’m not that
> familiar
> > > > > with
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > details
> > > > > > > > > > > of the
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > organization, surely not as familiar as one of
> its
> > > > > > Directors,
> > > > > > > > > so
> > > > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > > a lot
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > of ways I don’t fully understand the scope of
> what
> > > > > needs
> > > > > > to be
> > > > > > > > > > > done, but
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > I’m willing to volunteer a few weekends of my
> > > > > rudimentary
> > > > > > > > > > technical
> > > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > design skills to run a “Find & Replace…” and put
> > > > > together
> > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > new
> > > > > > > > > > > logo or
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > whatever you think would be helpful in this
> > effort. I
> > > > > > haven’t
> > > > > > > > > > > designed a
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > logo in probably 15 years but I’m willing to
> give
> > it a
> > > > > > try.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > I would have assumed that an organization with a
> > paid
> > > > > > staff
> > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > goals to
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > increase the diversity of its contributors and
> > > > > continue
> > > > > > > > > > receiving
> > > > > > > > > > > corporate
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > donations would understand that the costs of
> > inaction
> > > > > > outweigh
> > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > costs of
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > action here.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Let me know what else I can do to help.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Walter
> > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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