I would also ask if this is an official complaint from the Apache tribes because only they and their representatives can file an official complaint in regards to the Apache tribes.
Anyone else is not speaking on behalf of the tribes. In respect to the tribes and their elders, I would first want to hear their perspectives and see how the Apache foundation could first work with them and see if their is an issue before making any drastic decisions. Owen Rubel oru...@gmail.com On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 10:36 AM me <m...@emangini.com> wrote: > Thanks Sam and Andrew for helping provide visibility! > > > > From: Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net> > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <dev@community.apache.org> > Date: April 29, 2022 at 13:35:41 > To: Apache Community Dev <dev@community.apache.org> > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name > > Moving board to bcc. Mixing public and private mailing lists is not a > good idea. > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 12:48 PM Andrew Musselman <a...@apache.org> > wrote: > > > > Copying them now. > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 9:46 AM me <m...@emangini.com> wrote: > > > > > @Andrew, > > > > > > How do we engage the board? > > > > > > > > > Ed Mangini > > > m...@emangini.com > > > > > > > > > From: Andrew Musselman <a...@apache.org> > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <dev@community.apache.org> > > > Date: April 29, 2022 at 12:44:28 > > > To: dev@community.apache.org <dev@community.apache.org> > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 8:28 AM me <m...@emangini.com> wrote: > > > > > > > Andrew, > > > > > > > > I agree that putting it to a member vote is possibly polarizing > (and > > > > premature). That’s not really the intent here. A poll is a dipstick > > > effort > > > > to check the temperature before we reach strategy and tactics. > Polling > > > is > > > > more about discovery. > > > > > > > > > > I think you'll get a similar reaction from a poll. > > I personally think a poll is premature. At the moment, you don't have > a proposed name, scope, or size of effort. Without a definition, it > isn't clear what people will be expressing support for (or against). > It is OK to leave some parts TBD for a poll, but for a poll to be > useful there needs to be some substance. > > > > > I’m all for the outreach. For my own clarification, are you looking > at > > > > this as a means of defining boundaries on the effort, setting > urgency > > > on > > > > the efforts (or some combination of both?) > > > > > > > > > > I think this is such an expansive and encompassing topic that covers > > > almost > > > every aspect of the operations of the foundation that it might be > smart > > > for > > > the board to have a look and build up a plan before doing any ad hoc > > > outreach. > > > > > > Is this something you’re willing to do or kick off? > > > > > > > > > > I personally don't have bandwidth to participate in activities on > this, > > > no. > > > > > > > > > > Is there any reason why we can’t move forward with both a poll and > > > > outreach? > > > > > > > > > > Again I think this is a board decision but I am not a lawyer. > > Board decision will come much later. Meanwhile, many board members > watch this list. > > - Sam Ruby > > > > > From: Andrew Musselman <a...@apache.org> > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <dev@community.apache.org> > > > > Date: April 29, 2022 at 10:14:05 > > > > To: dev@community.apache.org <dev@community.apache.org> > > > > Cc: Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com> > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name > > > > > > > > Speaking as someone in the Pacific Northwest US, where we say land > > > > acknowledgement for the Duwamish tribe at the beginning of all > school > > > > events, meaning I respect and understand the motivation for this: > > > > > > > > I think simply opening this up for a member vote will result in an > > > > unproductive firefight. Reactions will range from enthusiastic > sympathy > > > > to > > > > bewildered annoyance to outright hostile accusations. > > > > > > > > Can I propose an outreach to some Apache tribe governments so we > can > > > open > > > > a > > > > dialog with them directly, and start to understand what their > official > > > > experience of the ASF branding is? > > > > > > > > Then we could formulate a plan after some deliberation. > > > > > > > > The plan could include logo redesign if the feather symbol is viewed > as > > > > insensitive, for example, and other changes balanced with > feasibility > > > and > > > > community values. > > > > > > > > Best > > > > Andrew > > > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 6:29 AM me <m...@emangini.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > @Christian > > > > > > > > > > You’re very welcome! I think an internal poll has a great way of > > > > defining > > > > > footholds. It’s going to be hard to craft to avoid confirmation > bias, > > > > but I > > > > > think it’s definitely possible. > > > > > > > > > > @Matt > > > > > > > > > > I agree. There is no doubt that this is something that would > require > > > > > stages. Approaching this “Big Bang” style is going to fail pretty > > > > quickly. > > > > > I’m thinking the effort is going to be an amalgam of the > Washington > > > > > Redskins -> Commanders effort + the migration from JUnit 4 to 5. > This > > > > > definitely hits on the “strategic” aspect of Sam’s initial > questions. > > > > > > > > > > I think we can probably differentiate a brand change and a name > > > change > > > > as > > > > > separate efforts (or at the very least separate life cycles). > Large > > > > > organizations that acquire startups and small companies often > rebrand > > > > the > > > > > acquired assets and their products to better fit their > business/tech > > > > > strategy. However, underlying assets (repos, docs, materials) are > > > > retrofit > > > > > at a slower burn. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think the first action item is probably a poll. I’m happy to > > > pair/mob > > > > > (virtually or otherwise) on it with someone. Are there any > particular > > > > > psychometrics we’d like to leverage (i.e. Likert?) > > > > > > > > > > @Walter, do you want to take a first stab at a poll? Maybe we can > put > > > > > together a small tiger team to carry it out? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com> > > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <dev@community.apache.org> > > > > > Date: April 28, 2022 at 18:45:07 > > > > > To: dev@community.apache.org <dev@community.apache.org> > > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name > > > > > > > > > > Defining a scope here is also fairly important. For example, the > > > > > apache.org domain name is fairly baked into a lot of > unchangeable > > > > > places such as Java package names, every single released > artifact, > > > the > > > > > software license itself (which is used by tons of people outside > of > > > > > ASF), all the existing public URLs to things, email addresses, > > > signing > > > > > keys, the GitHub organization name, tons of infrastructure > > > > > configuration, finance documents, corporate documents, > trademarks, > > > and > > > > > surely other areas I'm forgetting. > > > > > > > > > > If we have a name change and only update the places where it's > easy > > > to > > > > > do so, the name Apache will still be highly visible in tons of > key > > > > > areas for the indefinite future. This isn't even considering > > > > > downstream users of Apache software, either, who may or may not > adopt > > > > > a rename. These are some of the fairly intractable concerns I've > had > > > > > about a name change, and that's even after working with another > OSS > > > > > project that went through a name change and still has tons of > > > > > references to its old names due to compatibility issues. > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 28, 2022 at 3:49 PM Christian Grobmeier > > > > > <grobme...@apache.org> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 28, 2022, at 22:19, me wrote: > > > > > > > Christian, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Were you thinking of an internal poll? That’s actually a > > > > spectacular > > > > > idea. > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, that was I was thinking. Basically a poll on members@, > since > > > (I > > > > > guess) members would eventually decide on that proposal. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How do we go about kicking that off? > > > > > > > > > > > > I am not so sure either, but I guess writing the poll and > proposing > > > > it > > > > > to community@ would be a first step. Once decided on the content > we > > > > could > > > > > vote on sending it, and then send it to members@ > > > > > > > > > > > > Others may have different ideas, but that is my first idea on > it. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for calling my idea spectacular, it gives me a warm > feeling, > > > > > since I didn't think of it as such :) > > > > > > > > > > > > Kind regards, > > > > > > Christian > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ed Mangini > > > > > > > m...@emangini.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Christian Grobmeier <grobme...@apache.org> > > > > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <dev@community.apache.org> > > > > > > > Date: April 28, 2022 at 15:43:04 > > > > > > > To: dev@community.apache.org <dev@community.apache.org> > > > > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> Hello, > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> On Thu, Apr 28, 2022, at 20:57, me wrote: > > > > > > >> > The desire to make the change is definitely there. I echo > > > > Walter’s > > > > > > >> > passion and statements. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> +1 > > > > > > >> > I also agree w/ Sam that this isn’t going to be easy to > > > > > accomplish. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> +1 > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > Perhaps a starting point would be to answer these questions > in > > > > > concert: > > > > > > >> > - what is the LOE to perform the rebranding/renaming? > > > > > > >> > - are there enough volunteers within the organization > willing > > > to > > > > > participate? > > > > > > >> > - what does the community think? > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > I want to emphasize that this last question is a point of > no > > > > > return. If > > > > > > >> > we start creating surveys and asking about our brand, it’s > > > going > > > > > to > > > > > > >> > chum the waters. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> Agreed. I would have thought to make a poll in the community > > > > first- > > > > > briefly explain the issue and see what the community > (non-binding) > > > vote > > > > is > > > > > - just checking sentiments. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> I am afraid there will be a lot of headwinds. But based on > the > > > > > outcome one could decide if its more work to explain the issue or > > > > actually > > > > > solve the issue. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> Also a quick poll could stir up some people who are > interested > > > in > > > > > helping. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> Cheers, > > > > > > >> Christian > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > From: Walter Cameron <walter.li...@waltercameron.com> > > > > > > >> > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <dev@community.apache.org> > > > > > > > >> > Date: April 28, 2022 at 01:29:03 > > > > > > >> > To: dev@community.apache.org <dev@community.apache.org> > > > > > > >> > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > On Wed, Apr 27, 2022 at 6:40 PM Sam Ruby < > > > ru...@intertwingly.net> > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> >> Walter: what are you personally willing to volunteer to > do? > > > > What > > > > > is > > > > > > >> >> your plan? What resources do you need? > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > Honestly Sam the extent of my plan was to bring attention > to > > > > this > > > > > issue and > > > > > > >> > the harms it’s caused. Beyond that I’m kinda winging it but > I > > > > > appreciate > > > > > > >> > your eagerness and openness to change. I had hoped I’d > speak > > > up, > > > > > people > > > > > > >> > would finally pull their heads out of the sand and work to > > > undo > > > > the > > > > > harm > > > > > > >> > they’ve caused. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > ASF’s brand violates its own CoC. You would think that > might > > > > spur > > > > > effort > > > > > > >> > for change by those perpetuating the harm, but if you want > me > > > to > > > > do > > > > > the > > > > > > >> > work I’ll do whatever I can. I’m not that familiar with > the > > > > details > > > > > of the > > > > > > >> > organization, surely not as familiar as one of its > Directors, > > > so > > > > in > > > > > a lot > > > > > > >> > of ways I don’t fully understand the scope of what needs to > be > > > > > done, but > > > > > > >> > I’m willing to volunteer a few weekends of my rudimentary > > > > technical > > > > > and > > > > > > >> > design skills to run a “Find & Replace…” and put together > a > > > new > > > > > logo or > > > > > > >> > whatever you think would be helpful in this effort. I > haven’t > > > > > designed a > > > > > > >> > logo in probably 15 years but I’m willing to give it a > try. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > I would have assumed that an organization with a paid > staff > > > and > > > > > goals to > > > > > > >> > increase the diversity of its contributors and continue > > > > receiving > > > > > corporate > > > > > > >> > donations would understand that the costs of inaction > outweigh > > > > the > > > > > costs of > > > > > > >> > action here. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > Let me know what else I can do to help. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > Walter > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org > > > > > > > >> For additional commands, e-mail: > dev-h...@community.apache.org > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org > > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org > >
