On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 3:58 AM, Nick Wedd <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 12/06/2013 23:08, Don Dailey wrote: > >> I don't quite see the point. The goal is to find the best possible >> hand YOU can make with your 13 cards and there is no betting, so I see >> no point in using Monte Carlo here. >> >> What am I missing? >> >> Is it whether to sacrifice one of the 3 hands to strengthen the other 2? >> Or in the case of a really bad hand to at least make 1 really strong >> hand? >> > > In the "open" version, you can see what hands the other players are > constructing, and act accordingly. > > Also, you have to start allocating your cards to hands before you have > seen all 13 of them. > Ahh, that would definitely make this game a lot more interesting. Don > > Nick > >> >> Don >> >> >> On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 6:03 PM, Jason House >> <[email protected] >> <mailto:jason.james.house@**gmail.com<[email protected]>>> >> wrote: >> >> For a particular breakdown into 3 hands, it should be possible to do >> a monte carlo simulation by randomly distribute the remaining cards >> to the other players and then randomly separating each player's >> cards into 3 hands. A node in the search tree would be scored as the >> average result of many simulations. >> >> I can think of a few ways to build a search tree. If you have >> experience in the game and know a few general strategies, they will >> likely be very handy for achieving enough strength to evaluate the >> approach. The search tree should be able to give feedback on which >> strategy is best. The same strategies may also help improve the >> random opponents, but that might require more care. It's easy to >> introduce bias. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Jun 12, 2013, at 4:06 PM, Oleg Barmin <[email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>**> wrote: >> >> Sure. It's open chinese poker: >>> >>> http://www.pokerlistings.com/**poker-rules-chinese-poker<http://www.pokerlistings.com/poker-rules-chinese-poker> >>> >>> >>> Среда, 12 июня 2013, 20:57 +01:00 от Nick Wedd <[email protected] >>> <mailto:[email protected]>>: >>> >>> On 12/06/2013 20:33, Oleg Barmin wrote: >>> > > For quality assessment, play many games against one or >>> more reference >>> > opponents. >>> > It's difficult to assament algorithm with a game against >>> humans. The >>> > game is young and there are no recognized masters at the >>> moment. So it's >>> > very hard to find human-opponent with a really good game >>> skills. >>> > >>> > > With card games you can get some serious intransitivity, >>> rocks, >>> > paper, scissors type of stuff. >>> > The aim of this game is to max your scores. Each turn you >>> need to select >>> > one of three choices. Each choice has an expectation value >>> of your >>> > scores. Optimal strategy here is to select a choice with max >>> expectation >>> > value. But it will take a years to calculate an expectation >>> value at the >>> > start of the game. So the game has no such intransitivity as >>> rocks, >>> > paper, scissors. >>> > At the last turns we can make a complete choice enumeration and >>> > calculate an exact scores expectation value ( does go >>> algorithms use the >>> > same technique? ) . It's not the way for the first half of >>> the game. But >>> > the first half is more important. >>> >>> Can you give a link to the rules of this game? Or even just >>> tell us its >>> name? >>> >>> Nick >>> >>> > >>> > Oleg >>> > >>> > >>> > Среда, 12 июня 2013, 14:24 -04:00 от Don Dailey >>> <[email protected] >>> >>> <https://e.mail.ru/sentmsg?**compose&To=dailey.don@gmail.**com<https://e.mail.ru/sentmsg?compose&[email protected]> >>> >>: >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 11:30 AM, David Fotland >>> > <[email protected] >>> <https://e.mail.ru/sentmsg?**compose&To=fotland@smart%** >>> 2dgames.com<https://e.mail.ru/sentmsg?compose&To=fotland@smart%2dgames.com> >>> > >>> > <sentmsg?mailto=mailto%**3afotland@smart%2dgames.com >>> <http://2dgames.com>>> wrote: >>> > >>> > For quality assessment, play many games against one or more >>> > reference opponents. >>> > >>> > >>> > Especially for a game that is not a game of perfect >>> information such >>> > as go or chess. With card games you can get some serious >>> > intransitivity, rocks, paper, scissors type of stuff. >>> > >>> > Don >>> > >>> > >>> > ____ >>> > >>> > __ __ >>> > >>> > David____ >>> > >>> > __ __ >>> > >>> > >>> *From:*computer-go-bounces@**dvandva.org<[email protected]> >>> <https://e.mail.ru/sentmsg?**compose&To=%2acomputer%2dgo%** >>> [email protected]<https://e.mail.ru/sentmsg?compose&To=%2acomputer%2dgo%[email protected]> >>> > >>> > <sentmsg?mailto=mailto%**3acomputer%2dgo%2dbounces@** >>> dvandva.org <mailto%253acomputer%252dgo%[email protected]> >>> <https://e.mail.ru/sentmsg?**compose&To=sentmsg%3fmailto%** >>> 3dmailto%253acomputer%252dgo%**[email protected]<https://e.mail.ru/sentmsg?compose&To=sentmsg%3fmailto%3dmailto%253acomputer%252dgo%[email protected]> >>> >> >>> > >>> [mailto:computer-go-bounces@**dvandva.org<[email protected]> >>> <https://e.mail.ru/sentmsg?**compose&To=computer%2dgo%** >>> [email protected]<https://e.mail.ru/sentmsg?compose&To=computer%2dgo%[email protected]> >>> > >>> > <sentmsg?mailto=mailto%**3acomputer%2dgo%2dbounces@** >>> dvandva.org <mailto%253acomputer%252dgo%[email protected]> >>> <https://e.mail.ru/sentmsg?**compose&To=sentmsg%3fmailto%** >>> 3dmailto%253acomputer%252dgo%**[email protected]<https://e.mail.ru/sentmsg?compose&To=sentmsg%3fmailto%3dmailto%253acomputer%252dgo%[email protected]> >>> >>] >>> > *On Behalf Of *Oleg Barmin >>> > *Sent:* Wednesday, June 12, 2013 8:02 AM >>> > *To:* [email protected] >>> <https://e.mail.ru/sentmsg?**compose&To=computer%2dgo@** >>> dvandva.org<https://e.mail.ru/sentmsg?compose&To=computer%[email protected]> >>> > >>> > >>> <sentmsg?mailto=mailto%**3acomputer%[email protected]<mailto%253acomputer%[email protected]> >>> <https://e.mail.ru/sentmsg?**compose&To=sentmsg%3fmailto%** >>> 3dmailto%253acomputer%252dgo@**dvandva.org<https://e.mail.ru/sentmsg?compose&To=sentmsg%3fmailto%3dmailto%253acomputer%[email protected]> >>> >> >>> > *Subject:* [Computer-go] algorithm quality assessment____ >>> > >>> > __ __ >>> > >>> > Hi, everybody,____ >>> > >>> > I am working at the development of a cards game algorithm using >>> > MCTS. Technically, the game model is expect minmax tree search, >>> > where direct search takes up too much time, that is why I >>> > decided to use MCTS.____ >>> > >>> > The issue of using MCST, like any other approximation algorithm >>> > is its quality assessment. I am developing an algorithm for a >>> > game where no recognized masters exist. How do you think, guys, >>> > if for instance Go (or Amazons) provided no way to assess an >>> > algorithm playing with professional gamers (or other programs), >>> > how would you assets its quality?____ >>> > >>> > My second question: I have not yet learned Go in and out, >>> > however in my opinion, any search of a next step should >>> identify >>> > a number of options with similar or even the same assessment. >>> > How do you resolve this issue?____ >>> > >>> > >>> > Best regards, >>> > Oleg Barmin.____ >>> > >>> > >>> > ______________________________**_________________ >>> > Computer-go mailing list >>> > [email protected] >>> <https://e.mail.ru/sentmsg?**compose&To=Computer%2dgo@** >>> dvandva.org<https://e.mail.ru/sentmsg?compose&To=computer%[email protected]> >>> > >>> > >>> <sentmsg?mailto=mailto%**3acomputer%[email protected]<mailto%253acomputer%[email protected]> >>> <https://e.mail.ru/sentmsg?**compose&To=sentmsg%3fmailto%** >>> 3dmailto%253aComputer%252dgo@**dvandva.org<https://e.mail.ru/sentmsg?compose&To=sentmsg%3fmailto%3dmailto%253acomputer%[email protected]> >>> >> >>> > >>> http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/**mailman/listinfo/computer-go<http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go> >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > Best regards, >>> > Oleg Barmin. >>> > >>> > >>> > ______________________________**_________________ >>> > Computer-go mailing list >>> > [email protected] >>> <https://e.mail.ru/sentmsg?**compose&To=Computer%2dgo@** >>> dvandva.org<https://e.mail.ru/sentmsg?compose&To=computer%[email protected]> >>> > >>> > >>> http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/**mailman/listinfo/computer-go<http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go> >>> > >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Nick Wedd >>> [email protected] >>> >>> <https://e.mail.ru/sentmsg?**compose&[email protected]<https://e.mail.ru/sentmsg?compose&[email protected]> >>> > >>> ______________________________**_________________ >>> Computer-go mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> <https://e.mail.ru/sentmsg?**compose&To=Computer%2dgo@** >>> dvandva.org<https://e.mail.ru/sentmsg?compose&To=computer%[email protected]> >>> > >>> >>> http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/**mailman/listinfo/computer-go<http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go> >>> >>> >>> >>> Best regards, >>> Oleg Barmin. >>> ______________________________**_________________ >>> Computer-go mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> <mailto:Computer-go@dvandva.**org<[email protected]> >>> > >>> >>> http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/**mailman/listinfo/computer-go<http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go> >>> >> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> Computer-go mailing list >> [email protected] >> <mailto:Computer-go@dvandva.**org<[email protected]> >> > >> >> http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/**mailman/listinfo/computer-go<http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go> >> >> >> >> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> Computer-go mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/**mailman/listinfo/computer-go<http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go> >> >> > > -- > Nick Wedd > [email protected] > ______________________________**_________________ > Computer-go mailing list > [email protected] > http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/**mailman/listinfo/computer-go<http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go>
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