On Aug 12, 2015, at 1:00 AM, Rick Brass via CnC-List <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
wrote:
> David:
>
> Exactly what model and vintage of Universal diesel do you have in your boat?
> In reading the information on the Catalina website that was referenced in an
> earlier post, I note that they are generally referring to Universal M25XP
> that apparently did not have a solenoid to power the glow plugs and the fuel
> lift pump. On the M25,35,40B (at least according to the manuals I have that
> are dated 1997) there is a solenoid. I’d like to reference the parts and
> wiring material for your specific model of engine.
M4-30- the manual has no date I can find, but the boat was commissioned in
1990. The manual covers a bunch of engines including the M25XP. The panel
appears to be the Deluxe 300685.
>
> And let me understand the situation you have:
> When connected to shore power, when you press the glow plug button and the
> start button together, the engine cranks and starts?
I am pretty sure that is the case, but it has been a long time since I tried it
and don’t trust my memory. I am on a mooring 99% of the time. We are going
to the boat today so plan to test this.
> Is it safe to presume you have a battery charger connected whenever shore
> power is on, that the float charge is around 13v, and that the battery
> charger will switch on and deliver 30 or 40 amps of charging current if it
> senses the battery voltage to be below 12v or so?
Yes- but I am almost never on shore power. 50 W Solar panel plugged in all the
time to charge and batteries appear fully charged when testing. I have not yet
measured the amps. Not sure how I would do that. I don’t have a battery monitor
(yet).
> When starting on just the batteries, when you press the glow plug button
> alone you hear the lift pump clicking, and the clicking slows down and stops
> after a few seconds as the fuel line comes up to pressure?
The pump comes on when you turn on the key switch and runs continuously whether
buttons are pushed or not. It slows down when both are pushed. I guess it
stops when the engine starts, but I have not thought about it and not sure I
would hear it with the engine running. Is that what normally happens?
> When starting on just the batteries, when you press the start button alone
> the engine starts?
Yes
> When starting on just the batteries, when you press and hold the glow plug
> button and then press the start button, you hear the fuel pump clicking and
> slowing down, but the engine just grunts or clicks and the starter does not
> turn to start the engine?
Yes- no real clicks at all, just mostly silence. When I opened the engine
compartment and listened next to the starter, I heard a noise, but can’t say
for sure the solenoid was closing or not.
> What do you have for a starting battery? And is the behavior the same when
> you try starting with the battery switch set to “all” as it is when you try
> starting with just the start battery connected?
Same in All setting as A or B. Both batteries are from Defender bought 2 years
ago and are the same:
Lifeline Deep Cycle Marine Battery
Item # : 204201
12 Volt, Type: AGM, Group: 27
Amp Hours: 100, Reserve Capacity: 186, MCA / Cranking Amps: 715
>
> Rick
>
> From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of David
> Knecht via CnC-List
> Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2015 10:35 PM
> To: CnC CnC discussion list <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
> Cc: David Knecht <davidakne...@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: Stus-List Universal Engine panel wiring
>
> This has been a great learning experience and I think I understand most of
> what has been said. One thing I don’t get is why Rick thinks I should change
> the wiring back to the original design. With that setup, if you have a
> problem in the circuit (as I apparently do) you would not be able to start
> the engine. The way mine is wired seems to have no obvious disadvantage if
> all is OK, but gives you the ability to start the engine with a poor
> connection somewhere. If it were wired as original in the manual, I would
> not be able to start at all. I don’t see a disadvantage to my panel’s wiring
> design. Rick- are you suggesting that the start problem might be caused by
> the wiring change? I can’t see that.
>
> One further clue if it helps, with the start button and glow plug button
> pushed, you can hear the fuel pump slow way down and I hear a noise from the
> solenoid but I don’t know if that noise is the solenoid actually closing.
>
> One clarification- I have no solenoid on the glow plug circuit either from
> the manual circuit diagram or as far as I have found in the wiring, so I
> presume that is just a difference in my engine and others.
>
> I should also note that when I first got the boat, I had problems starting it
> at all unless plugged into shore power. I thought it was the batteries so
> got new ones, but that made no difference. When I cleaned the ground wire
> connections to the engine block, it started as I do it now. I can’t remember
> if I ever tried pushing both at the same time back then. I was new to glow
> plugs and had not found the manual yet and its description of the start
> sequence, so I doubt it.
>
> Tomorrow my Dad and I are going to take apart the harnesses and fuse holders
> and clean all the contacts and see if that makes a difference. Dave
>
> On Aug 11, 2015, at 10:01 PM, Rick Brass via CnC-List <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
> wrote:
>
>
> Your math is correct, and the high current through the glow plugs (and the
> fuel lift pump) accounts for the fact that the system voltage drops to
> 11.5-12.0v when the glow plug button is pressed.
>
> But I just looked at the manual for my M35B and the glow plug button does not
> provide current for the glow plugs or the fuel pump. It provides current to
> close a solenoid that connects the glow plugs and the fuel pump to the
> battery. So the high current flow is ultimately from B+, and the current flow
> through the glow plug button only needs to be a faction of an amp.
>
> I don’t recall David saying that the engine did not start or the starter did
> not engage. Rather he indicated that the engine panel was wired differently
> than the manufacturer’s wiring diagram and the starting procedure was
> different than the procedure spelled out in the owner’s manual for the engine.
>
> If the starter engages when the button is pushed, then there is demonstrably
> enough voltage and resulting current flow to close the solenoid (which should
> take well under an amp).
>
> When the starter solenoid is closed, that creates an almost dead short on the
> high current side from the battery (via the big red battery cable connected
> to the starter) to ground through the starter coil, and there will be 175 to
> 250 amps of current flowing through the starter. The resulting magnetic field
> creates enough torque and rotation speed to start the engine. On my boat,
> with a 4 cylinder M35B, the system voltage drops below 10.5 volts when the
> starter is engaged. As a matter of fact, if I restart the engine after the
> chart plotter has been turned on, the chart plotter will shut down due to the
> low voltage and will need to be restarted. (I swear every time that happens.)
>
> It occurs to me that the fact that the system voltage drops to around 10v
> when the starter is turning could be a contributing reason that David only
> measured 8v from the solenoid connection to ground when he pushed the starter
> button. If the starter does engage, then I stand by my diagnosis that there
> is nothing amiss with solenoid or starter, and that it would be best to
> restore the panel wiring to the way it left the factory.
>
> BTW, Mainecruising is right is saying the panel is the choke point for
> current supply. All of the current to power the solenoid that connects the
> battery to the glow plugs and fuel pump, the starter solenoid, and the
> instruments comes through the key switch. Of course the panel and wiring is
> designed for the current flow expected. And, of course, the panel on a Yanmar
> is also the choke point for current to the idiot lights, alarms, and the
> starter solenoid as well.
>
>
> From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Josh
> Muckley via CnC-List
> Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2015 12:27 PM
> To: C&C List <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
> Cc: Josh Muckley <muckl...@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: Stus-List Universal Engine panel wiring
>
> I checked the specs of the universal glo-plugs and they average 2 ohms.
> This equates to ~6amps times 4 cylinders equals ~24amps. That's a pretty
> good amount of current draw. The way Maine Sailor makes it sound the panel
> is the choke point and all the current for the glo-plugs AND starter solenoid
> has to come from the panel and through various plug connectors and relatively
> small gauge wire. Each adding it's own amount of additional resistance. Not
> to mention poor connections, burnt contacts, and corrosion. I'm not
> surprised at all to see the voltage dragged down enough to prevent the
> starter solenoid from being able to close.
>
> Josh Muckley
> S/V Sea Hawk
> 1989 C&C 37+
> Solomons, MD
>
> On Aug 11, 2015 11:41 AM, "Rick Brass via CnC-List" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
> wrote:
> In about 20 years of working on boats, mine and others’, the photo is the
> first Universal panel I have seen with an ammeter instead of a voltmeter on
> the panel.
>
> Of course the glow plugs will draw down the starting voltage. When you power
> the glow plugs you are running ten amps or so across a couple thousand ohms
> of resistance to create heat. If your battery is OK, and of normal capacity,
> the voltage loss to the system will be negligible – maybe 0.1v or less. But
> that happens any time you put a load on the system. Doesn’t the voltage shown
> on your battery monitor drop from around 12.6 to 12.4 or 12.5 when you turn
> on the lights in the cabin? Same thing.
>
> The only way that the glow plugs will cause a significant drop in the
> starting voltage is if you have a direct short in the wiring or a defective
> glow plug that is shorted to the engine block. Then you get a direct short
> from battery to ground through the engine panel wiring harness, and you let
> all the smoke out of the engine wiring harness. (Sorry, old electrical
> engineering joke coming back to haunt me.) Which is why there is a typically
> a 20 amp fuse in the power wire that supplies the engine panel.
>
> Putting a solenoid into the system so the button engages the solenoid and the
> solenoid powers the glow plugs really doesn’t accomplish anything. Unless you
> have the unlikely confluence of a short in the solenoid and a short in a glow
> plug, in which case you get a short direct from battery to ground and you let
> the smoke out of the whole boat.
>
>
> Rick Brass
> Washington, NC
>
>
>
> From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Josh
> Muckley via CnC-List
> Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2015 10:03 AM
> To: C&C List <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
> Cc: Josh Muckley <muckl...@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: Stus-List Universal Engine panel wiring
>
> I don't have a universal or any experience with one but it sounds to me like
> the glow plugs are drawing down the starting voltage. I would suggest
> installing a solenoid for the glow plugs in addition to a solenoid for the
> starter. The 2 articles below talk about poorly wired universal panels and
> make similar suggestions.
>
> http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/universal_wiring_harness_upgrade
>
> http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/solder_trouble_shooting
>
> Josh Muckley
> S/V Sea Hawk
> 1989 C&C 37+
> Solomons, MD
>
> On Aug 11, 2015 8:50 AM, "Neil Gallagher via CnC-List"
> <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
> The power to the starter button is supposed to come off the switched terminal
> of the glow plug button. You are supposed to to have to push the glow plug
> switch and the starter switch every time you start, as the glow plug switch
> also powers both the electric fuel pump until the oil pressure builds up, and
> silences the low oil pressure alarm. Once the oil pressure rises, its switch
> powers the fuel pump.
>
> I put an M30B in our club launch and it has the same setup.
>
> Neil Gallagher
> Weatherly, 35-1
> Glen Cove, NY
>
> On 8/10/2015 11:15 PM, David Knecht via CnC-List wrote:
> Since I got my boat, I have been bothered by the fact that the engine will
> not start in the way it is described in the manual unless plugged into shore
> power. The manual says to hold the glow plug button for about 30 seconds and
> then while continuing to hold that button in, push the start button. When I
> do that, the starter does not turn over. If I release the glow plug button
> and push the start button the engine starts fine. My father (retired
> electrical engineer) and I (genetic engineer- useless in this case but sounds
> good) spent some time trying to diagnose the problem this weekend and found
> two interesting things:
>
> 1. The buttons both tested fine in terms of their switch function. We then
> tested power at the engine. There is a heavy red cable coming from the
> battery to the starter measured 12V. The red-yellow wire from the start
> button is attached to what I am presuming is the solenoid (the wiring diagram
> in the manual does not show a solenoid). We only measured 8 volts at the
> solenoid when the button is pushed, but 12 volts everywhere else. So that
> probably explains the fact that both the glow plugs and starter won’t work at
> the same time because we appear to be losing 4 volts in the solenoid. I will
> pull the starter next winter and have someone test it unless someone has an
> alternative suggestion.
>
> 2. The wiring diagram in the manual (Fig 2 on page 13) shows the power from
> the key switch coming into the glow plug button and then a wire from the
> other lead to the start button. The manual shows that wire running from the
> downstream side of the glow plug switch so that the start button should only
> be energized when the glow plug button is pushed (as the manual describes).
> If that were the case, the I would not be able to start the engine with only
> the start button. Nevertheless, it does start the engine. Tracing the
> wires, we found that the bridging wire actually came from the hot side of the
> glow plug switch, so that either button will work independently as both are
> always powered. What I don’t understand is why you would wire it the other
> way (as the manual shows) since that would remove the ability to start the
> engine without the glow plugs (as in an already warm engine). I don’t know
> if the PO or some yard mechanic made that change or if it is indicated wrong
> in the manual, so I am curious how other Universal panels are wired. The way
> it is actually wired makes more sense to me than what is in the manual unless
> I am missing something.
>
> Thanks- Dave
>
> Aries
> 1990 C&C 34+
> New London, CT
>
>
>
>
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> _______________________________________________
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>
> Aries
> 1990 C&C 34+
> New London, CT
>
> <image001.png>
>
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Dr. David Knecht
Professor of Molecular and Cell Biology
Core Microscopy Facility Director
University of Connecticut
91 N. Eagleville Rd.
Storrs, CT 06269
860-486-2200
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