The criticism towards Lein is totally uncalled for, it's small, simple, lightweight and for the JVM it's a great clojure-centric way to gather and manage dependencies. Yes, there's lots of options, but for simple projects, you're done with a few lines of configuration. No-one could say it doesn't at least rival equivalent Python options. I'm not saying a lein-py will be needed, but lein is certainly a godsend on the JVM.
Your comparison of Clojure's internal code is also slightly unfair. Afaik, clojure-py is based on the Clojurescript codebase. This is code based on protocols, and other Clojure constructs created to make more of Clojure in Clojure. These were introduced in 1.2 and 1.3. However, the current Clojure codebase is still based on previous Clojure versions. Perhaps to prevent breaking changes, perhaps to introduce more such constructs, or perhaps await coming changes on the JVM front that might make a new Clojure implementation easier / more transparent (invoke dynamic, java closures, method handles). It's been pretty quiet on the Clojure-in-Clojure front, but Rich et al. have been known to be tight lipped about work in progress, and spring them by surprise. Anyway, it doesn't really impact day-to-day use of Clojure. Java library use is pretty straightforward in most use cases. Relative quality of libraries on both platforms is mostly a matter of how acquainted you are with them. Java's OS agnosticism can be a pretty big boon. Python being available for almost all platforms might be one just as big, although I have no idea about the current state of (extension based) library support in Pypy. Don't get me wrong, it's not that I'm not excited about clojure-py. The examples of back and forth integration of Clojure and Python are pretty neat, for example. There's quite a few libraries in Python I like more than their JVM based equivalents (if any). However, the OP comes across as if it's the one Clojure to rule them all, and I'm putting some notes of caution towards that, especially towards people new to the language. There's been a lot of complaints lately about confusing examples between Clojure versions, let alone a version that has next to none yet. On Thursday, August 16, 2012 8:41:03 PM UTC+2, Luc wrote: > > Then its the same with the python implementation, read my other post :) > > Having lein-py would hide some of these implementation details. > > > > A lot of these implementation details bleed out into everyday language > use, > > let alone using platform libraries. I agree with Sean on that. > > > > On Thursday, August 16, 2012 7:29:34 PM UTC+2, Luc wrote: > > > > > > Clojure is Clojure, Java and how much of the core of the is written in > it > > > is an implementation detail. > > > > > > No build tool = pain in the .... In large projects. > > > > > > Luc P. > > > > > > > > > > Yeah, you're right. Clojure itself is just a functional Lisp. > > > > > > > > But, Clojure is at least 2 languages: Lisp & Java. Lisp by itself > isn't > > > > that complicated but adding Java makes it much harder. > > > > > > > > ClojurePY is Lisp and Python. Python has a lower barrier to entry > than > > > Java. > > > > > > > > On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 9:11 AM, Timothy Baldridge < > tbald...@gmail.com<javascript:>>wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Clojure is incredibly complicated. > > > > > > > > > > I'd be careful about going that far. Clojure itself is not really > that > > > > > complicated. I think it's more the restrictions the JVM puts on > it. As > > > an > > > > > example, see RestFn.java, AFn.java, etc. Since the python VM > supports > > > > > first-class functions all that complexity isn't needed. > > > > > > > > > > So I agree with it having a lower barrier of entry (which is one > of > > > the > > > > > reasons I wrote it), but I think that's more the fault of the JVM > than > > > > > Clojure. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah, that's why I use it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Timothy > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > > > > Groups "Clojure" group. > > > > > To post to this group, send email to > > > > > clo...@googlegroups.com<javascript:> > > > > > > Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient > > > with > > > > > your first post. > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > > > > clojure+u...@googlegroups.com <javascript:> > > > > > For more options, visit this group at > > > > > http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > > > Groups "Clojure" group. > > > > To post to this group, send email to > > > > clo...@googlegroups.com<javascript:> > > > > > Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient > with > > > your first post. > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > > > clojure+u...@googlegroups.com <javascript:> > > > > For more options, visit this group at > > > > http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en > > > -- > > > Softaddicts<lprefo...@softaddicts.ca <javascript:>> sent by ibisMail > from > > > my ipad! > > > > > > > On Thursday, August 16, 2012 7:29:34 PM UTC+2, Luc wrote: > > > > > > Clojure is Clojure, Java and how much of the core of the is written in > it > > > is an implementation detail. > > > > > > No build tool = pain in the .... In large projects. > > > > > > Luc P. > > > > > > > > > > Yeah, you're right. Clojure itself is just a functional Lisp. > > > > > > > > But, Clojure is at least 2 languages: Lisp & Java. Lisp by itself > isn't > > > > that complicated but adding Java makes it much harder. > > > > > > > > ClojurePY is Lisp and Python. Python has a lower barrier to entry > than > > > Java. > > > > > > > > On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 9:11 AM, Timothy Baldridge < > tbald...@gmail.com<javascript:>>wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Clojure is incredibly complicated. > > > > > > > > > > I'd be careful about going that far. Clojure itself is not really > that > > > > > complicated. I think it's more the restrictions the JVM puts on > it. As > > > an > > > > > example, see RestFn.java, AFn.java, etc. Since the python VM > supports > > > > > first-class functions all that complexity isn't needed. > > > > > > > > > > So I agree with it having a lower barrier of entry (which is one > of > > > the > > > > > reasons I wrote it), but I think that's more the fault of the JVM > than > > > > > Clojure. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah, that's why I use it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Timothy > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > > > > Groups "Clojure" group. > > > > > To post to this group, send email to > > > > > clo...@googlegroups.com<javascript:> > > > > > > Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient > > > with > > > > > your first post. > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > > > > clojure+u...@googlegroups.com <javascript:> > > > > > For more options, visit this group at > > > > > http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > > > Groups "Clojure" group. > > > > To post to this group, send email to > > > > clo...@googlegroups.com<javascript:> > > > > > Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient > with > > > your first post. > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > > > clojure+u...@googlegroups.com <javascript:> > > > > For more options, visit this group at > > > > http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en > > > -- > > > Softaddicts<lprefo...@softaddicts.ca <javascript:>> sent by ibisMail > from > > > my ipad! > > > > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > Groups "Clojure" group. > > To post to this group, send email to clo...@googlegroups.com<javascript:> > > Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with > your first post. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > clojure+u...@googlegroups.com <javascript:> > > For more options, visit this group at > > http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en > -- > Softaddicts<lprefo...@softaddicts.ca <javascript:>> sent by ibisMail from > my ipad! > On Thursday, August 16, 2012 8:41:03 PM UTC+2, Luc wrote: > > Then its the same with the python implementation, read my other post :) > > Having lein-py would hide some of these implementation details. > > > > A lot of these implementation details bleed out into everyday language > use, > > let alone using platform libraries. I agree with Sean on that. > > > > On Thursday, August 16, 2012 7:29:34 PM UTC+2, Luc wrote: > > > > > > Clojure is Clojure, Java and how much of the core of the is written in > it > > > is an implementation detail. > > > > > > No build tool = pain in the .... In large projects. > > > > > > Luc P. > > > > > > > > > > Yeah, you're right. Clojure itself is just a functional Lisp. > > > > > > > > But, Clojure is at least 2 languages: Lisp & Java. Lisp by itself > isn't > > > > that complicated but adding Java makes it much harder. > > > > > > > > ClojurePY is Lisp and Python. Python has a lower barrier to entry > than > > > Java. > > > > > > > > On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 9:11 AM, Timothy Baldridge < > tbald...@gmail.com<javascript:>>wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Clojure is incredibly complicated. > > > > > > > > > > I'd be careful about going that far. Clojure itself is not really > that > > > > > complicated. I think it's more the restrictions the JVM puts on > it. As > > > an > > > > > example, see RestFn.java, AFn.java, etc. Since the python VM > supports > > > > > first-class functions all that complexity isn't needed. > > > > > > > > > > So I agree with it having a lower barrier of entry (which is one > of > > > the > > > > > reasons I wrote it), but I think that's more the fault of the JVM > than > > > > > Clojure. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah, that's why I use it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Timothy > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > > > > Groups "Clojure" group. > > > > > To post to this group, send email to > > > > > clo...@googlegroups.com<javascript:> > > > > > > Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient > > > with > > > > > your first post. > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > > > > clojure+u...@googlegroups.com <javascript:> > > > > > For more options, visit this group at > > > > > http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > > > Groups "Clojure" group. > > > > To post to this group, send email to > > > > clo...@googlegroups.com<javascript:> > > > > > Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient > with > > > your first post. > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > > > clojure+u...@googlegroups.com <javascript:> > > > > For more options, visit this group at > > > > http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en > > > -- > > > Softaddicts<lprefo...@softaddicts.ca <javascript:>> sent by ibisMail > from > > > my ipad! > > > > > > > On Thursday, August 16, 2012 7:29:34 PM UTC+2, Luc wrote: > > > > > > Clojure is Clojure, Java and how much of the core of the is written in > it > > > is an implementation detail. > > > > > > No build tool = pain in the .... In large projects. > > > > > > Luc P. > > > > > > > > > > Yeah, you're right. Clojure itself is just a functional Lisp. > > > > > > > > But, Clojure is at least 2 languages: Lisp & Java. Lisp by itself > isn't > > > > that complicated but adding Java makes it much harder. > > > > > > > > ClojurePY is Lisp and Python. Python has a lower barrier to entry > than > > > Java. > > > > > > > > On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 9:11 AM, Timothy Baldridge < > tbald...@gmail.com<javascript:>>wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Clojure is incredibly complicated. > > > > > > > > > > I'd be careful about going that far. Clojure itself is not really > that > > > > > complicated. I think it's more the restrictions the JVM puts on > it. As > > > an > > > > > example, see RestFn.java, AFn.java, etc. Since the python VM > supports > > > > > first-class functions all that complexity isn't needed. > > > > > > > > > > So I agree with it having a lower barrier of entry (which is one > of > > > the > > > > > reasons I wrote it), but I think that's more the fault of the JVM > than > > > > > Clojure. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah, that's why I use it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Timothy > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > > > > Groups "Clojure" group. > > > > > To post to this group, send email to > > > > > clo...@googlegroups.com<javascript:> > > > > > > Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient > > > with > > > > > your first post. > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > > > > clojure+u...@googlegroups.com <javascript:> > > > > > For more options, visit this group at > > > > > http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > > > Groups "Clojure" group. > > > > To post to this group, send email to > > > > clo...@googlegroups.com<javascript:> > > > > > Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient > with > > > your first post. > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > > > clojure+u...@googlegroups.com <javascript:> > > > > For more options, visit this group at > > > > http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en > > > -- > > > Softaddicts<lprefo...@softaddicts.ca <javascript:>> sent by ibisMail > from > > > my ipad! > > > > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > Groups "Clojure" group. > > To post to this group, send email to clo...@googlegroups.com<javascript:> > > Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with > your first post. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > clojure+u...@googlegroups.com <javascript:> > > For more options, visit this group at > > http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en > -- > Softaddicts<lprefo...@softaddicts.ca <javascript:>> sent by ibisMail from > my ipad! > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clojure" group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
