2011/7/2 Aaron Bedra <aaron.be...@gmail.com> > Although I agree with the ideas here that have already been stated by Rich, > I am concerned about this message. There is no reason to stand against > somebody. Steve is welcome to his own opinions and is an incredibly smart > guy. He should be respected as a peer. His opinions happen to be different > from Clojure's core values, and that is ok. Steve will either choose to use > Clojure or go another path, and that is alright. > > The way for Clojure to grow is by embracing it's core values and showing > the world that careful choices do lead to the right outcome. Let's not turn > this into us against Steve. There's nothing productive there. Focus your > energy instead on writing great Clojure code and sharing it with everyone > else. Get people excited about Clojure who want something more powerful, > and show them what is truly possible. >
huge +1000 > > Cheers, > > Aaron Bedra > -- > Clojure/core > http://clojure.com > > > > On 07/01/2011 03:59 PM, James Keats wrote: > >> Hi all. I've been looking at Clojure for the past month, having had a >> previous look at it a couple of years ago and then moved on to other >> things only to return to it now. >> >> Over the past decade I have looked at many languages and many ways of >> doing things. People may say this language or that language is >> "general purpose", but the fact remains that languages have their >> niches in which they excel and beyond which it'd be foolish to >> venture. >> >> Clojure should not attempt be a "mass success" language or worry about >> its Tiobe index ranking. >> >> Clojure, the way I see it, is most suitable for the advanced >> independent developer. It is a language in the image of its creator, >> Rich Hickey. It's not a language for the factory hen. It won't become >> the next Java. Java already fills that niche, and despite what some >> may say, I don't see it going away anytime soon. >> >> I don't feel Clojure needs to "grow" - in terms of size of language. >> In fact it would worry me enormously if Clojure's path is to "grow" in >> size. It is fundamentally unsuited for that. If anything I wish for it >> to shrink even further and further. >> >> A Rich Hickey's quote comes to mind: >> • (paraphrased) "Most Clojure programmers go through an arc. First >> >> they think “eww, Java” and try to hide all the Java. Then they think >> “ooh, Java” and realize that Clojure is a powerful way to write Java >> code" >> and "As I've said in my talks, most Clojure users go from "eww, Java >> libs" to "ooh, Java libs", leveraging the fact there there is already >> a lib for almost anything they need to do. And using the lib is >> completely transparent, idiomatic and wrapper free." - Google verbatim >> for sources. >> >> >> Whereas when Steve Yegge writes: "which means that everyone (including >> me!) who is porting Java code to Clojure (which, by golly, is a good >> way to get a lot of people using Clojure) is stuck having to rework >> the code semantically rather than just doing the simplest possible >> straight port. The more they have to do this, the more you're going >> to shake users off the tree." all I could think on reading this is >> "horror, horror, oh God, horror!!!; he really doesn't get it". First, >> he shouldn't be porting Java code to clojure, Second, Clojure IS >> fundamentally different from Java, and third, such said users who >> don't want to touch Java should not touch Clojure. >> >> Clojure shouldn't worry about growing; java already has innumerable >> libs. Clojure, imho, should continue its - what I would dub - >> "middleware begone!" path, in which it'd provide an end-to-end, down- >> to-the-metal comprehensible system that an individual developer can >> get his head round and know exactly what's happening with his code and >> its environment here and everywhere. >> >> I could write more, but I have to run. Regards. >> J. >> >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "Clojure" group. > To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com > Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with > your first post. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > clojure+unsubscribe@**googlegroups.com<clojure%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com> > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/**group/clojure?hl=en<http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en> > -- László Török Skype: laczoka2000 Twitter: @laczoka -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clojure" group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
