Okay, it's a start. I'll concede that much; but we have a long way to go and most of my points still stand.
On the political front, i.e. enforcing/creating legislation for accessibility-and not only games-we are completely screwed here in the United States-unless we can elect a Democrat-controlled Congress. That, however, is another topic for another time. P.S. Do not confuse a realistic appraisal of a situation with bitterness; you only undermine your own credibility. On 12/18/17, Joshua Tubbs <[email protected]> wrote: > Well, hold on a minute. Not fully accessible. No talking menus yet. Making > plays and the actual gameplay, with vision assists on, is pretty > accessible. > It’s also not fully accessible because there needs to be more things > implemented for the passing game. The workaround that Karen, Ea Sport’s > accessibility lead, came up with isn’t deficient enough, though it is for > pretty much everyone else but me lol. > > HTH. > > > >> On Dec 18, 2017, at 5:45 PM, Josh Kennedy <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> EA games has an accessibility department now. Madden nfl is fully >> accessible on xBox within the past 3 or so months. >> >> >> Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for >> Windows 10 >> >> From: Justin Jones <mailto:[email protected]> >> Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 16:37 >> To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >> Subject: Re: [blind-gamers] developing accessible games >> >> Warning, wall of text to follow; apologies in advance. >> >> Amusing; I have a bridge to sell you guys. Your sentimentality does >> not line up with the stark economic reality of game >> development/publishing. >> >> Up until recently, I have been playing mainstream games for over >> thirty years. I lost the rest of my eyesight a couple of years ago and >> my old habits and preferences for gaming were, for obvious reasons, >> barred to me. Over the literal decades of gaming I have done, I have >> never seen one instance of a mainstream publisher/developer take an >> interest in creating games with substantial accessibility features for >> the blind. Not. One. Single. Instance. Any accessibility features, >> i.e. hotkeys and the like, are only incidentally blind-friendly and >> not put in by actual intent of the game designer to cater to us. I am >> not blaming them for this, rather I am pointing out the hard facts of >> life. >> >> If we want to play mainstream games, it is up to us to adapt. In no >> instance, ever, is a developer/publisher going to insert a feature for >> their Triple A title just to satisfy one or two people's desire for >> additional accessibility. With games, they are on tight development >> schedules and only have so much time to devote to a single title >> before they move on and start working on the next game. Harsh, but >> this gets back to the ruthless economics of game development. >> >> Speaking of the ruthlessness of gaming economics, mainstream >> publishers are interested in how they can increase their profitability >> and they are not going to do that by making their games accessible to >> a very small minority of people. This is a fact; you do not have to >> like it, but there it is. Electronic Arts, for instance, is more >> concerned with how they can screw their existing gamer base over with >> lootboxes and micro-transactions. You would have to show me hard >> evidence that they have any interest in us as a community. In other >> words, I am being that guy: links or it didn't happen (and that >> includes my argument from the previous paragraph). >> >> The same goes with any other mainstream publishing company whether it >> be Activision-Blizzard or Sega; the market share just isn't there to >> develop for blind gamers. Indi developers, on the other hand, might be >> an avenue of approach, but they have all they can do just to stay >> afloat. If it comes down to developing a sure-fire winner of a title >> for sighted players or taking a chance on developing something for the >> blind, nine times out of ten, they will do the former and not the >> latter. >> >> Another point I would like to raise is that inclusiveness is just now >> becoming a thing in the mainstream gaming scene, i.e. recognition of >> LBGTQ main characters or strong female protagonists that do not fall >> back on male stereotypes. Yes, it has taken this long and the process >> is in its infancy. If the mainstream gaming community ever decides to >> take us seriously as gamers, it is going to be a very long time >> (decades, if ever). >> >> If we, as blind gamers, want the equivalent of good mainstream games, >> then it is up to us to do it for ourselves-as with everything else >> that we, as blind people, have had to accomplish over the years. >> Therefore, what is the point in trying to provide accessibility >> features to the sighted when they have zero interest in doing so? This >> isn't about tit-for-tat, rather this is confronting reality and not >> trying to construct a fantasy world in which the mainstream gaming >> community take us seriously. >> >> Again, if anyone has any links to hard evidence that shows a genuine >> sea change in mainstream gaming community practices toward blind >> inclusiveness, then feel free to post them here and I will be happy to >> give them a look. Also, and more importantly, I will only take >> attempts at accessibility seriously-from the mainstream gaming >> developer community-when they start announcing attempts at making >> games like Elder Scrolls, World of Warcraft, Dawn of War III, Metroid >> Prime IV, Assassin's Creed or any equivalent titles with blind players >> in mind. >> >> Again, sorry for the wall of text. >> >> On 12/18/17, Damien Sykes <[email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> > Hi Shaun, >> > Yeah. Much as I hate to admit it, I was diagnosed with autism myself, >> > near >> > the aspergers end. I say I hate to admit it, but only because people >> > judge >> > me harshly for it. I'm not ashamed of it, it's who I am. But I am >> > ashamed of >> > >> > some of my childhood attitudes. Whether that was my autism, or whether I >> > was >> > >> > just full of hatred anger and bitterness, I don't know, and I don't >> > particularly care to go back there neither. That was a very dark time >> > for >> > me. To be honest, I think I was possibly more angry with life than I >> > was >> > with any particular person or group of people. I still struggle with my >> > emotions even today, but on a very different level. >> > Cheers. >> > Damien. >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: Shaun Everiss >> > Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 8:25 PM >> > To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >> > Subject: Re: [blind-gamers] developing accessible games >> > >> > I agree damien. >> > >> > I was like this from 15-20 years then from 26-30, but I am ok now. >> > >> > A lot of things did not pan out and I have accepted though I am still >> > bitter about some of those things. >> > >> > I however can't do anything about them. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > On 19/12/2017 9:18 a.m., Damien Sykes wrote: >> >> Hi Justin, >> >> Your below message represents almost the exact bitter and prejudiced >> >> thoughts of a 14-year-old me. Sighted people probably have a good >> >> thousand >> >> >> >> games to every one of ours. So why should we give a damn? But no. We >> >> need >> >> >> >> to try and include everyone, otherwise we are not only stooping to >> >> that >> >> level, if indeed they are doing it maliciously, which most don't seem >> >> to >> >> be. But we are also cutting off our nose to spite our face. Make a >> >> well >> >> known game, make it for the blind only, have a family game night, fire >> >> it >> >> >> >> up and you'll see what I mean. You're totally isolating yourself from >> >> everyone else and that's not fair on you, or them. >> >> Recently I've been looking into new languages so that I can start >> >> messing >> >> >> >> around seeing if I can make big grand audio games, but also to see if >> >> I >> >> can create some online games that I can play with my family. It's >> >> lonely >> >> when your family are playing without you, or when you're playing a >> >> game >> >> solo that is meant to be multiplayer. If anything has shown me how >> >> important this kind of stuff is, it's the value of family. >> >> Cheers. >> >> Damien. >> >> -----Original Message----- From: Justin Jones >> >> Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 6:34 PM >> >> To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >> >> Subject: Re: [blind-gamers] developing accessible games >> >> >> >> I am going to have to respectfully disagree; for an audio game, for >> >> people with no visual acuity, visual elements are both a waste of time >> >> and resources. >> >> >> >> If I were, for example, to try and develop a role-playing game along >> >> the same lines as Baldur's Gate, production time would be increased by >> >> at least a factor of two. A visual interface is very different than an >> >> audio one-especially for role-playing games. >> >> >> >> This might sound a little petty (and if it does, I could not care >> >> less), but the mainstream gaming industry has made it very clear that >> >> accessibility and inclusiveness for blind players is not anything like >> >> a priority. Why should we, as blind gamers/game developers, make any >> >> sort of effort to include that group of gamers? Put differently, if a >> >> sighted person wants to play an audio game, there is nothing stopping >> >> them from doing so, but it is not our problem if they complain over >> >> the lack of a visual interface/feedback. >> >> >> >> This is my chief complaint with A Hero's Call: Out of Sight Games is >> >> attempting to prostitute itself to a community that does not give a >> >> damn about an indi developer trying to make a game for both blind and >> >> sighted people. Unless Out of Sight Games has a hidden art department >> >> as a part of their team, no sighted person (other than the curious) >> >> will purchase their game. Why would they? They have Skyrim, Diablo >> >> III, Path of Exile, Fallout 4, and so on. >> >> >> >> On 12/18/17, Liam Erven <[email protected] >> >> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> >>> I disagree. There are times where having visual feedback is >> >>> important. >> >>> Especially in a game that you’d want to put in schools. >> >>> There should never be a reason not to include visual elements. Access >> >>> for >> >>> all works both ways. >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Sent from Mail for Windows 10 >> >>> >> >>> From: Damien Sykes >> >>> Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 11:09 AM >> >>> To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >> >>> Subject: Re: [blind-gamers] developing accessible games >> >>> >> >>> Hi, >> >>> I don’t know why, but I like the fact that there’s no visual element. >> >>> I >> >>> know >> >>> that a UI won’t make or break an audio game, but if there’s no UI >> >>> then >> >>> you >> >>> have no choice but to go fully audio, and it really makes you think >> >>> about >> >>> what information needs to be conveyed. Almost like writing your own >> >>> mini >> >>> and/or virtual screen reader, I guess. I must say, it was a fun >> >>> challenge >> >>> conceptualising and writing the audio form. >> >>> Cheers. >> >>> Damien. >> >>> >> >>> From: Liam Erven >> >>> Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 3:52 PM >> >>> To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >> >>> Subject: Re: [blind-gamers] developing accessible games >> >>> >> >>> My biggest issues are lack of cross-platform, lack of environmental >> >>> effects, >> >>> and no way to do any sort of visual UI. That’s been an issue in Brain >> >>> Station unfortunately. >> >>> This is the problem when you get too comfortable with a scripting >> >>> language >> >>> like what was stated earlier. You don’t want to learn anything else. >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Sent from Mail for Windows 10 >> >>> >> >>> From: Damien Sykes >> >>> Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 9:39 AM >> >>> To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >> >>> Subject: Re: [blind-gamers] developing accessible games >> >>> >> >>> Hi Justin, >> >>> Indeed there are workarounds for these issues, but they are trivial >> >>> compared >> >>> >> >>> to some of the bigger limitations. No 3d. No audio effects >> >>> (filtering, >> >>> reverb etc). Not cross-platform. Can't really do anything with binary >> >>> data >> >>> unless you do all the calculations and conversions yourself. Tantrums >> >>> from >> >>> the garbage collector from time to time, which of course will reduce >> >>> performance. No real way of totally resetting the state of execution. >> >>> Of >> >>> course you can reset all the variables, but the call stack will still >> >>> show a >> >>> >> >>> call to reset... >> >>> The binary data and reset state aren't big showstoppers for me. Even >> >>> the >> >>> cross platform isn't a big deal for me. I only ever use Windows for >> >>> my >> >>> main >> >>> >> >>> work, only ever use Linux for server admin through SSH and I don't >> >>> see >> >>> myself getting a mac or phone anytime soon. But performance is >> >>> definitely >> >>> important in any product, and since I'm seeing more and more games >> >>> make >> >>> use >> >>> >> >>> of 3d audio and environmental effects, if I made another game I'd want >> >>> to >> >>> >> >>> be >> >>> >> >>> able to use that. >> >>> Cheers. >> >>> Damien. >> >>> -----Original Message----- >> >>> From: Justin Jones >> >>> Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 3:11 PM >> >>> To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >> >>> Subject: Re: [blind-gamers] developing accessible games >> >>> >> >>> One example of this sort of limitation is that BGT will only allow >> >>> for >> >>> the reading of string data types from a file and nothing else. For >> >>> example, if you tell BGT to output a series of numbers into a text >> >>> file, it does this just fine, but if you try to read those numbers >> >>> back into a piece of code as integers, i.e. assigning the values to >> >>> an >> >>> integer data type, BGT kicks back an error. Of course, there is a >> >>> work-around for this, but you have to use the string conversion >> >>> functions to convert a string data type to an integer data type. This >> >>> is an odd limitation, considering that the other programming >> >>> languages >> >>> I've worked with in the past do not have this problem. >> >>> >> >>> Another example of a limitation for BGT is data validation. If you >> >>> were to have the user input a number, there is no built-in >> >>> functionality for the input box function to perform data validation. >> >>> Again, there are work-arounds for this, but this ought to have been >> >>> something that is a part of the input box function. >> >>> >> >>> I freely admit that I could be wrong concerning both of these >> >>> examples. >> >>> >> >>> On 12/18/17, Liam Erven <[email protected] >> >>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> >>>> It’s still a scripting language by definition. It’s good for games, >> >>>> but >> >>>> not >> >>>> much else. Also has several limitations which could be problematic. >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> Sent from Mail for Windows 10 >> >>>> >> >>>> From: Josh Kennedy >> >>>> Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 6:36 AM >> >>>> To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >> >>>> Subject: Re: [blind-gamers] developing accessible games >> >>>> >> >>>> Sam tupy’s elaborate survive the wild game was written entirely in >> >>>> bgt. >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> Sent from Mail for Windows 10 >> >>>> >> >>>> From: Justin Jones >> >>>> Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 07:31 >> >>>> To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >> >>>> Subject: Re: [blind-gamers] developing accessible games >> >>>> >> >>>> So long as you understand that BGT isn't a real programming >> >>>> language, >> >>>> as it falls under scripting. >> >>>> >> >>>> It's not a bad start though, as it can do plenty of cool things and >> >>>> also serves as an intro to game programming, but it is only an >> >>>> intro. >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> On 12/17/17, Josh Kennedy <[email protected] >> >>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> >>>>> Try the free bgt toolkit. Free blind game makers toolkit. Just >> >>>>> google >> >>>>> search >> >>>>> bgt blind game makers toolkit. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Sent from Mail for Windows 10 >> >>>>> >> >>>>> From: Marvin Hunkin via Groups.Io >> >>>>> Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 20:23 >> >>>>> To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >> >>>>> Subject: [blind-gamers] developing accessible games >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Hi. maybe this is too technical. But do you know of any blind >> >>>>> developers >> >>>>> developing an accessible game framework and also an accessible >> >>>>> diagramming >> >>>>> software. If so, let me know. And also what’s the steps to develop >> >>>>> an >> >>>>> accessible game say for windows. >> >>>>> Thanks. >> >>>>> Ps: also for like mobile, ios, android, x box, etc. thanks. >> >>>>> Ps: thinking of doing a diploma of interactive gaming from my >> >>>>> school,and >> >>>>> they have like a few subjects, 3d interactive gaming and designing >> >>>>> 3d >> >>>>> graphics, etc. any one done these type of courses. Thanks. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>> Virus-free. www.avast.com <http://www.avast.com/> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> -- >> >>>> Justin M. Jones, M.A. >> >>>> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >> >>>> (254) 624-9155 >> >>>> 701 Ewing St. #509-C, Ft. Wayne IN, 46802 >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> -- >> >>> Justin M. Jones, M.A. >> >>> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >> >>> (254) 624-9155 >> >>> 701 Ewing St. #509-C, Ft. Wayne IN, 46802 >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> -- >> Justin M. Jones, M.A. >> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >> (254) 624-9155 >> 701 Ewing St. #509-C, Ft. Wayne IN, 46802 >> >> >> >> > > -- Justin M. Jones, M.A. [email protected] (254) 624-9155 701 Ewing St. #509-C, Ft. Wayne IN, 46802 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Groups.io Links: You receive all messages sent to this group. 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