Re: [blind-gamers] developing accessible games

Mon, 18 Dec 2017 15:12:52 -0800

Political considerations enter into all of this. Monitor what happens to accessibility regulations in this and future administrations since what happens to those regulations really is the wind. We are at most one leaf in that wind and not attached to any tree either. 

On Tue, 19 Dec 2017, Shaun Everiss wrote:


Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2017 14:53:26
From: Shaun Everiss <[email protected]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [blind-gamers] developing accessible games

I have to disagree with you back.
Audio games are basically done, we should focus on inclusive games for all if we can help it. 

Otherwise I'd have a blindy device to do all my blindy things.

At the extra blindy cost for the blindy me.

Back in the day I did this.

Guess what, interest in what you do with the sighted dropps.

No one knows what you are doing and if it breaks it costs.
Games I think its time for us to shrug off the audio aspects if all can play then it shouldn't matter.
I realise the blind can't make sighted games but the trend is coming where more and more sightlings are making games for all and this should be encouraged.
If you had said the same thing to my face 2 years back or even just 6 months back I'd aggree with you. 

Blind games are for the blind, sighted games are for the sighted.
Then again, it wasn't to long ago that windows was for the sighted, and some blindy system was for the blind. 

We are progressing.
As it stands right now I don't think while the industry is continuing just fine that it will go much further. 

We can only go so far in audio unless we can successfully program vr.

But then vr hardware costs a lot more than we can afford.
Apps for the smartphone well thats one ariea I guess but on pc which a lot of us still use, there is a market. 

And not everyone has a console or the cash or room for one.
Now as I said before we have gotten the concepts of 3d and binoral audio, voice acting and cinimatics, speech both computer generated and in real files. 

Better hardware and software to get the job done.

Online multiplayer that can compair to sighted people for the most part.

But we can't go much higher.
Even if we did push into universal apps and the new windows designs, the fact is we are going to get into a wall sooner or later.
Not all software is accessible like unity and steam, we have vb6, dotnet to some extent, python,2 and maybe 3, old dead bgt and maybe a few others for us. 

There is no cash to be made from the blind though.

We actually need some sighted help to keep us moving.
Some have gotten interested and are using unity which while its not accessible can actually make some really stable audiogames.
A few are using the unreal engine which while its really performance heavy is making some games and that can only get better. 

Point is in the short to medium term I don't think we are going anywhere.
We won't fall down by any means but we have reached a platto and will stay there indefinately long term, who knows. 

There is only so much that can be done with audio on its own.
Now if all disabilities and stuff along with sight was added and if there was a way to get some stuff accessible or at least playable to a point where we could, code7 is an example, true a lot of the stuff we can't play is not in there but still.
Point is we made a good start, now we have a stable audio framework we need others to move us forward or? for others to use it. 

This doesn't mean we lose control to what we have done.
In fact others will be? asking us how we percieve audio, sighted people will try to challenge themselves a few of my friends do this. 

Some don't.
Ofcause there will be titles where each plays their own platform, we can all play things but anyone can play the same game but others well it depends. 





On 19/12/2017 7:34 a.m., Justin Jones wrote:

 I am going to have to respectfully disagree; for an audio game, for
 people with no visual acuity, visual elements are both a waste of time
 and resources.

 If I were, for example, to try and develop a role-playing game along
 the same lines as Baldur's Gate, production time would be increased by
 at least a factor of two. A visual interface is very different than an
 audio one-especially for role-playing games.

 This might sound a little petty (and if it does, I could not care
 less), but the mainstream gaming industry has made it very clear that
 accessibility and inclusiveness for blind players is not anything like
 a priority. Why should we, as blind gamers/game developers, make any
 sort of effort to include that group of gamers? Put differently, if a
 sighted person wants to play an audio game, there is nothing stopping
 them from doing so, but it is not our problem if they complain over
 the lack of a visual interface/feedback.

 This is my chief complaint with A Hero's Call: Out of Sight Games is
 attempting to prostitute itself to a community that does not give a
 damn about an indi developer trying to make a game for both blind and
 sighted people. Unless Out of Sight Games has a hidden art department
 as a part of their team, no sighted person (other than the curious)
 will purchase their game. Why would they? They have Skyrim, Diablo
 III, Path of Exile, Fallout 4, and so on.

 On 12/18/17, Liam Erven <[email protected]> wrote:

 I disagree. There are times where having visual feedback is important.
 Especially in a game that you?d want to put in schools.
 There should never be a reason not to include visual elements. Access for
 all works both ways.


 Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 From: Damien Sykes
 Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 11:09 AM
 To: [email protected]
 Subject: Re: [blind-gamers] developing accessible games

 Hi,
 I don?t know why, but I like the fact that there?s no visual element. I
 know
 that a UI won?t make or break an audio game, but if there?s no UI then
 you
 have no choice but to go fully audio, and it really makes you think about
 what information needs to be conveyed. Almost like writing your own mini
 and/or virtual screen reader, I guess. I must say, it was a fun challenge
 conceptualising and writing the audio form.
 Cheers.
 Damien.

 From: Liam Erven
 Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 3:52 PM
 To: [email protected]
 Subject: Re: [blind-gamers] developing accessible games

 My biggest issues are lack of cross-platform, lack of environmental
 effects,
 and no way to do any sort of visual UI. That?s been an issue in Brain
 Station unfortunately.
 This is the problem when you get too comfortable with a scripting
 language
 like what was stated earlier. You don?t want to learn anything else.



 Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 From: Damien Sykes
 Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 9:39 AM
 To: [email protected]
 Subject: Re: [blind-gamers] developing accessible games

 Hi Justin,
 Indeed there are workarounds for these issues, but they are trivial
 compared

 to some of the bigger limitations. No 3d. No audio effects (filtering,
 reverb etc). Not cross-platform. Can't really do anything with binary
 data
 unless you do all the calculations and conversions yourself. Tantrums
 from
 the garbage collector from time to time, which of course will reduce
 performance. No real way of totally resetting the state of execution. Of
 course you can reset all the variables, but the call stack will still
 show a

 call to reset...
 The binary data and reset state aren't big showstoppers for me. Even the
 cross platform isn't a big deal for me. I only ever use Windows for my
 main

 work, only ever use Linux for server admin through SSH and I don't see
 myself getting a mac or phone anytime soon. But performance is definitely
 important in any product, and since I'm seeing more and more games make
 use

 of 3d audio and environmental effects, if I made another game I'd want to
 be

 able to use that.
 Cheers.
 Damien.
 -----Original Message-----
 From: Justin Jones
 Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 3:11 PM
 To: [email protected]
 Subject: Re: [blind-gamers] developing accessible games

 One example of this sort of limitation is that BGT will only allow for
 the reading of string data types from a file and nothing else. For
 example, if you tell BGT to output a series of numbers into a text
 file, it does this just fine, but if you try to read those numbers
 back into a piece of code as integers, i.e. assigning the values to an
 integer data type, BGT kicks back an error. Of course, there is a
 work-around for this, but you have to use the string conversion
 functions to convert a string data type to an integer data type. This
 is an odd limitation, considering that the other programming languages
 I've worked with in the past do not have this problem.

 Another example of a limitation for BGT is data validation. If you
 were to have the user input a number, there is no built-in
 functionality for the input box function to perform data validation.
 Again, there are work-arounds for this, but this ought to have been
 something that is a part of the input box function.

 I freely admit that I could be wrong concerning both of these examples.

 On 12/18/17, Liam Erven <[email protected]> wrote:

 It?s still a scripting language by definition. It?s good for games, but
 not
 much else. Also has several limitations which could be problematic.



 Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 From: Josh Kennedy
 Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 6:36 AM
 To: [email protected]
 Subject: Re: [blind-gamers] developing accessible games

 Sam tupy?s elaborate survive the wild game was written entirely in bgt.


 Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 From: Justin Jones
 Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 07:31
 To: [email protected]
 Subject: Re: [blind-gamers] developing accessible games

 So long as you understand that BGT isn't a real programming language,
 as it falls under scripting.

 It's not a bad start though, as it can do plenty of cool things and
 also serves as an intro to game programming, but it is only an intro.



 On 12/17/17, Josh Kennedy <[email protected]> wrote:

 Try the free bgt toolkit. Free blind game makers toolkit. Just google
 search
 bgt blind game makers toolkit.


 Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 From: Marvin Hunkin via Groups.Io
 Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 20:23
 To: [email protected]
 Subject: [blind-gamers] developing accessible games

 Hi. maybe this is too technical. But do you know of any blind
 developers
 developing an accessible game framework and also an accessible
 diagramming
 software. If so, let me know. And also what?s the steps to develop an
 accessible game say for windows.
 Thanks.
Ps:  also for like mobile, ios, android, x box, etc. thanks.
Ps: thinking of doing a diploma of interactive gaming from my Ps: school,and 
 they have like a few subjects, 3d interactive gaming and designing 3d
 graphics, etc. any one done these type of courses. Thanks.



 Virus-free. www.avast.com






 --
 Justin M. Jones, M.A.
 [email protected]
 (254) 624-9155
 701 Ewing St. #509-C, Ft. Wayne IN, 46802








 --
 Justin M. Jones, M.A.
 [email protected]
 (254) 624-9155
 701 Ewing St. #509-C, Ft. Wayne IN, 46802


















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