What EA is doing is pretty awesome. Once we get away to read the game menus accessibly. I think we will be just about there. I know there is a long way to go though, because most other main stream Game Developers really don't focus on accessibility. I mean there are some games I have and will just play with out the accessibility and do ok but it doesn't solved the problem of readable menus. I would love to be able to enjoy titles like Skyrim, fall out 4 and a few others.
On 12/19/17, john <[email protected]> wrote: > I don't particularly care if you take me seriously, only that you do your > homework before spouting. > Take a look through a few tech news sites if you'd prefer to read articles > on the subject. > > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Justin Jones" <[email protected]> > Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2017 7:30 > To: <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [blind-gamers] developing accessible games > > Yeah, a more powerful version of BGT would be very nice. I would love > to see things like 3D sounds and database support. It's early, so > those are the two things that I can think of off the top of my head. > > I wouldn't trust anything the FCC is putting out right now, given what > they are trying to do to the Internet. Incidentally, it made my day > when I found out that Ajit Pai was doxxed. > > If you want me to take you seriously on the subject of politics John, > then don't provide links to an agency that is under the control of one > of the most corrupt presidential administrations in U.S. history. > > On 12/19/17, john <[email protected]> wrote: >> Here's a start for the political aspect. >> I'm fully aware this is a waver notice. Its expired. Hunt down more info >> if >> >> you really want to have an informed discussion, rather than making >> blatantly >> >> untrue statements that are easily refuted by two minutes work. >> https://www.fcc.gov/document/fcc-extends-acs-waiver-video-game-software >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> From: "Justin Jones" <[email protected]> >> Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 18:42 >> To: <[email protected]> >> Subject: Re: [blind-gamers] developing accessible games >> >> Okay, it's a start. I'll concede that much; but we have a long way to >> go and most of my points still stand. >> >> On the political front, i.e. enforcing/creating legislation for >> accessibility-and not only games-we are completely screwed here in the >> United States-unless we can elect a Democrat-controlled Congress. >> That, however, is another topic for another time. >> >> P.S. Do not confuse a realistic appraisal of a situation with >> bitterness; you only undermine your own credibility. >> >> On 12/18/17, Joshua Tubbs <[email protected]> wrote: >>> Well, hold on a minute. Not fully accessible. No talking menus yet. >>> Making >>> plays and the actual gameplay, with vision assists on, is pretty >>> accessible. >>> It’s also not fully accessible because there needs to be more things >>> implemented for the passing game. The workaround that Karen, Ea Sport’s >>> accessibility lead, came up with isn’t deficient enough, though it is >>> for >>> pretty much everyone else but me lol. >>> >>> HTH. >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Dec 18, 2017, at 5:45 PM, Josh Kennedy <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> EA games has an accessibility department now. Madden nfl is fully >>>> accessible on xBox within the past 3 or so months. >>>> >>>> >>>> Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for >>>> Windows 10 >>>> >>>> From: Justin Jones <mailto:[email protected]> >>>> Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 16:37 >>>> To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >>>> Subject: Re: [blind-gamers] developing accessible games >>>> >>>> Warning, wall of text to follow; apologies in advance. >>>> >>>> Amusing; I have a bridge to sell you guys. Your sentimentality does >>>> not line up with the stark economic reality of game >>>> development/publishing. >>>> >>>> Up until recently, I have been playing mainstream games for over >>>> thirty years. I lost the rest of my eyesight a couple of years ago and >>>> my old habits and preferences for gaming were, for obvious reasons, >>>> barred to me. Over the literal decades of gaming I have done, I have >>>> never seen one instance of a mainstream publisher/developer take an >>>> interest in creating games with substantial accessibility features for >>>> the blind. Not. One. Single. Instance. Any accessibility features, >>>> i.e. hotkeys and the like, are only incidentally blind-friendly and >>>> not put in by actual intent of the game designer to cater to us. I am >>>> not blaming them for this, rather I am pointing out the hard facts of >>>> life. >>>> >>>> If we want to play mainstream games, it is up to us to adapt. In no >>>> instance, ever, is a developer/publisher going to insert a feature for >>>> their Triple A title just to satisfy one or two people's desire for >>>> additional accessibility. With games, they are on tight development >>>> schedules and only have so much time to devote to a single title >>>> before they move on and start working on the next game. Harsh, but >>>> this gets back to the ruthless economics of game development. >>>> >>>> Speaking of the ruthlessness of gaming economics, mainstream >>>> publishers are interested in how they can increase their profitability >>>> and they are not going to do that by making their games accessible to >>>> a very small minority of people. This is a fact; you do not have to >>>> like it, but there it is. Electronic Arts, for instance, is more >>>> concerned with how they can screw their existing gamer base over with >>>> lootboxes and micro-transactions. You would have to show me hard >>>> evidence that they have any interest in us as a community. In other >>>> words, I am being that guy: links or it didn't happen (and that >>>> includes my argument from the previous paragraph). >>>> >>>> The same goes with any other mainstream publishing company whether it >>>> be Activision-Blizzard or Sega; the market share just isn't there to >>>> develop for blind gamers. Indi developers, on the other hand, might be >>>> an avenue of approach, but they have all they can do just to stay >>>> afloat. If it comes down to developing a sure-fire winner of a title >>>> for sighted players or taking a chance on developing something for the >>>> blind, nine times out of ten, they will do the former and not the >>>> latter. >>>> >>>> Another point I would like to raise is that inclusiveness is just now >>>> becoming a thing in the mainstream gaming scene, i.e. recognition of >>>> LBGTQ main characters or strong female protagonists that do not fall >>>> back on male stereotypes. Yes, it has taken this long and the process >>>> is in its infancy. If the mainstream gaming community ever decides to >>>> take us seriously as gamers, it is going to be a very long time >>>> (decades, if ever). >>>> >>>> If we, as blind gamers, want the equivalent of good mainstream games, >>>> then it is up to us to do it for ourselves-as with everything else >>>> that we, as blind people, have had to accomplish over the years. >>>> Therefore, what is the point in trying to provide accessibility >>>> features to the sighted when they have zero interest in doing so? This >>>> isn't about tit-for-tat, rather this is confronting reality and not >>>> trying to construct a fantasy world in which the mainstream gaming >>>> community take us seriously. >>>> >>>> Again, if anyone has any links to hard evidence that shows a genuine >>>> sea change in mainstream gaming community practices toward blind >>>> inclusiveness, then feel free to post them here and I will be happy to >>>> give them a look. Also, and more importantly, I will only take >>>> attempts at accessibility seriously-from the mainstream gaming >>>> developer community-when they start announcing attempts at making >>>> games like Elder Scrolls, World of Warcraft, Dawn of War III, Metroid >>>> Prime IV, Assassin's Creed or any equivalent titles with blind players >>>> in mind. >>>> >>>> Again, sorry for the wall of text. >>>> >>>> On 12/18/17, Damien Sykes <[email protected] >>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>>> > Hi Shaun, >>>> > Yeah. Much as I hate to admit it, I was diagnosed with autism myself, >>>> > near >>>> > the aspergers end. I say I hate to admit it, but only because people >>>> > judge >>>> > me harshly for it. I'm not ashamed of it, it's who I am. But I am >>>> > ashamed of >>>> > >>>> > some of my childhood attitudes. Whether that was my autism, or >>>> > whether >>>> > >>>> > I >>>> > was >>>> > >>>> > just full of hatred anger and bitterness, I don't know, and I don't >>>> > particularly care to go back there neither. That was a very dark time >>>> > for >>>> > me. To be honest, I think I was possibly more angry with life than I >>>> > was >>>> > with any particular person or group of people. I still struggle with >>>> > my >>>> > emotions even today, but on a very different level. >>>> > Cheers. >>>> > Damien. >>>> > -----Original Message----- >>>> > From: Shaun Everiss >>>> > Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 8:25 PM >>>> > To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >>>> > Subject: Re: [blind-gamers] developing accessible games >>>> > >>>> > I agree damien. >>>> > >>>> > I was like this from 15-20 years then from 26-30, but I am ok now. >>>> > >>>> > A lot of things did not pan out and I have accepted though I am still >>>> > bitter about some of those things. >>>> > >>>> > I however can't do anything about them. >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > On 19/12/2017 9:18 a.m., Damien Sykes wrote: >>>> >> Hi Justin, >>>> >> Your below message represents almost the exact bitter and prejudiced >>>> >> thoughts of a 14-year-old me. Sighted people probably have a good >>>> >> thousand >>>> >> >>>> >> games to every one of ours. So why should we give a damn? But no. We >>>> >> need >>>> >> >>>> >> to try and include everyone, otherwise we are not only stooping to >>>> >> that >>>> >> level, if indeed they are doing it maliciously, which most don't >>>> >> seem >>>> >> to >>>> >> be. But we are also cutting off our nose to spite our face. Make a >>>> >> well >>>> >> known game, make it for the blind only, have a family game night, >>>> >> fire >>>> >> it >>>> >> >>>> >> up and you'll see what I mean. You're totally isolating yourself >>>> >> from >>>> >> everyone else and that's not fair on you, or them. >>>> >> Recently I've been looking into new languages so that I can start >>>> >> messing >>>> >> >>>> >> around seeing if I can make big grand audio games, but also to see >>>> >> if >>>> >> I >>>> >> can create some online games that I can play with my family. It's >>>> >> lonely >>>> >> when your family are playing without you, or when you're playing a >>>> >> game >>>> >> solo that is meant to be multiplayer. If anything has shown me how >>>> >> important this kind of stuff is, it's the value of family. >>>> >> Cheers. >>>> >> Damien. >>>> >> -----Original Message----- From: Justin Jones >>>> >> Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 6:34 PM >>>> >> To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >>>> >> Subject: Re: [blind-gamers] developing accessible games >>>> >> >>>> >> I am going to have to respectfully disagree; for an audio game, for >>>> >> people with no visual acuity, visual elements are both a waste of >>>> >> time >>>> >> and resources. >>>> >> >>>> >> If I were, for example, to try and develop a role-playing game along >>>> >> the same lines as Baldur's Gate, production time would be increased >>>> >> by >>>> >> at least a factor of two. A visual interface is very different than >>>> >> an >>>> >> audio one-especially for role-playing games. >>>> >> >>>> >> This might sound a little petty (and if it does, I could not care >>>> >> less), but the mainstream gaming industry has made it very clear >>>> >> that >>>> >> accessibility and inclusiveness for blind players is not anything >>>> >> like >>>> >> a priority. Why should we, as blind gamers/game developers, make any >>>> >> sort of effort to include that group of gamers? Put differently, if >>>> >> a >>>> >> sighted person wants to play an audio game, there is nothing >>>> >> stopping >>>> >> them from doing so, but it is not our problem if they complain over >>>> >> the lack of a visual interface/feedback. >>>> >> >>>> >> This is my chief complaint with A Hero's Call: Out of Sight Games is >>>> >> attempting to prostitute itself to a community that does not give a >>>> >> damn about an indi developer trying to make a game for both blind >>>> >> and >>>> >> sighted people. Unless Out of Sight Games has a hidden art >>>> >> department >>>> >> as a part of their team, no sighted person (other than the curious) >>>> >> will purchase their game. Why would they? They have Skyrim, Diablo >>>> >> III, Path of Exile, Fallout 4, and so on. >>>> >> >>>> >> On 12/18/17, Liam Erven <[email protected] >>>> >> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>>> >>> I disagree. There are times where having visual feedback is >>>> >>> important. >>>> >>> Especially in a game that you’d want to put in schools. >>>> >>> There should never be a reason not to include visual elements. >>>> >>> Access >>>> >>> for >>>> >>> all works both ways. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Sent from Mail for Windows 10 >>>> >>> >>>> >>> From: Damien Sykes >>>> >>> Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 11:09 AM >>>> >>> To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >>>> >>> Subject: Re: [blind-gamers] developing accessible games >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Hi, >>>> >>> I don’t know why, but I like the fact that there’s no visual >>>> >>> element. >>>> >>> I >>>> >>> know >>>> >>> that a UI won’t make or break an audio game, but if there’s no UI >>>> >>> then >>>> >>> you >>>> >>> have no choice but to go fully audio, and it really makes you think >>>> >>> about >>>> >>> what information needs to be conveyed. Almost like writing your own >>>> >>> mini >>>> >>> and/or virtual screen reader, I guess. I must say, it was a fun >>>> >>> challenge >>>> >>> conceptualising and writing the audio form. >>>> >>> Cheers. >>>> >>> Damien. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> From: Liam Erven >>>> >>> Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 3:52 PM >>>> >>> To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >>>> >>> Subject: Re: [blind-gamers] developing accessible games >>>> >>> >>>> >>> My biggest issues are lack of cross-platform, lack of environmental >>>> >>> effects, >>>> >>> and no way to do any sort of visual UI. That’s been an issue in >>>> >>> Brain >>>> >>> Station unfortunately. >>>> >>> This is the problem when you get too comfortable with a scripting >>>> >>> language >>>> >>> like what was stated earlier. You don’t want to learn anything >>>> >>> else. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Sent from Mail for Windows 10 >>>> >>> >>>> >>> From: Damien Sykes >>>> >>> Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 9:39 AM >>>> >>> To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >>>> >>> Subject: Re: [blind-gamers] developing accessible games >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Hi Justin, >>>> >>> Indeed there are workarounds for these issues, but they are trivial >>>> >>> compared >>>> >>> >>>> >>> to some of the bigger limitations. No 3d. No audio effects >>>> >>> (filtering, >>>> >>> reverb etc). Not cross-platform. Can't really do anything with >>>> >>> binary >>>> >>> data >>>> >>> unless you do all the calculations and conversions yourself. >>>> >>> Tantrums >>>> >>> from >>>> >>> the garbage collector from time to time, which of course will >>>> >>> reduce >>>> >>> performance. No real way of totally resetting the state of >>>> >>> execution. >>>> >>> Of >>>> >>> course you can reset all the variables, but the call stack will >>>> >>> still >>>> >>> show a >>>> >>> >>>> >>> call to reset... >>>> >>> The binary data and reset state aren't big showstoppers for me. >>>> >>> Even >>>> >>> the >>>> >>> cross platform isn't a big deal for me. I only ever use Windows for >>>> >>> my >>>> >>> main >>>> >>> >>>> >>> work, only ever use Linux for server admin through SSH and I don't >>>> >>> see >>>> >>> myself getting a mac or phone anytime soon. But performance is >>>> >>> definitely >>>> >>> important in any product, and since I'm seeing more and more games >>>> >>> make >>>> >>> use >>>> >>> >>>> >>> of 3d audio and environmental effects, if I made another game I'd >>>> >>> want >>>> >>> to >>>> >>> >>>> >>> be >>>> >>> >>>> >>> able to use that. >>>> >>> Cheers. >>>> >>> Damien. >>>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>>> >>> From: Justin Jones >>>> >>> Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 3:11 PM >>>> >>> To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >>>> >>> Subject: Re: [blind-gamers] developing accessible games >>>> >>> >>>> >>> One example of this sort of limitation is that BGT will only allow >>>> >>> for >>>> >>> the reading of string data types from a file and nothing else. For >>>> >>> example, if you tell BGT to output a series of numbers into a text >>>> >>> file, it does this just fine, but if you try to read those numbers >>>> >>> back into a piece of code as integers, i.e. assigning the values to >>>> >>> an >>>> >>> integer data type, BGT kicks back an error. Of course, there is a >>>> >>> work-around for this, but you have to use the string conversion >>>> >>> functions to convert a string data type to an integer data type. >>>> >>> This >>>> >>> is an odd limitation, considering that the other programming >>>> >>> languages >>>> >>> I've worked with in the past do not have this problem. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Another example of a limitation for BGT is data validation. If you >>>> >>> were to have the user input a number, there is no built-in >>>> >>> functionality for the input box function to perform data >>>> >>> validation. >>>> >>> Again, there are work-arounds for this, but this ought to have been >>>> >>> something that is a part of the input box function. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> I freely admit that I could be wrong concerning both of these >>>> >>> examples. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> On 12/18/17, Liam Erven <[email protected] >>>> >>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>>> >>>> It’s still a scripting language by definition. It’s good for >>>> >>>> games, >>>> >>>> but >>>> >>>> not >>>> >>>> much else. Also has several limitations which could be >>>> >>>> problematic. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sent from Mail for Windows 10 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> From: Josh Kennedy >>>> >>>> Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 6:36 AM >>>> >>>> To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >>>> >>>> Subject: Re: [blind-gamers] developing accessible games >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sam tupy’s elaborate survive the wild game was written entirely in >>>> >>>> bgt. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sent from Mail for Windows 10 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> From: Justin Jones >>>> >>>> Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 07:31 >>>> >>>> To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >>>> >>>> Subject: Re: [blind-gamers] developing accessible games >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> So long as you understand that BGT isn't a real programming >>>> >>>> language, >>>> >>>> as it falls under scripting. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> It's not a bad start though, as it can do plenty of cool things >>>> >>>> and >>>> >>>> also serves as an intro to game programming, but it is only an >>>> >>>> intro. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 12/17/17, Josh Kennedy <[email protected] >>>> >>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Try the free bgt toolkit. Free blind game makers toolkit. Just >>>> >>>>> google >>>> >>>>> search >>>> >>>>> bgt blind game makers toolkit. >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> Sent from Mail for Windows 10 >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> From: Marvin Hunkin via Groups.Io >>>> >>>>> Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 20:23 >>>> >>>>> To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >>>> >>>>> Subject: [blind-gamers] developing accessible games >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> Hi. maybe this is too technical. But do you know of any blind >>>> >>>>> developers >>>> >>>>> developing an accessible game framework and also an accessible >>>> >>>>> diagramming >>>> >>>>> software. If so, let me know. And also what’s the steps to >>>> >>>>> develop >>>> >>>>> an >>>> >>>>> accessible game say for windows. >>>> >>>>> Thanks. >>>> >>>>> Ps: also for like mobile, ios, android, x box, etc. thanks. >>>> >>>>> Ps: thinking of doing a diploma of interactive gaming from my >>>> >>>>> school,and >>>> >>>>> they have like a few subjects, 3d interactive gaming and >>>> >>>>> designing >>>> >>>>> 3d >>>> >>>>> graphics, etc. any one done these type of courses. Thanks. >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> Virus-free. www.avast.com <http://www.avast.com/> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Justin M. Jones, M.A. >>>> >>>> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >>>> >>>> (254) 624-9155 >>>> >>>> 701 Ewing St. #509-C, Ft. Wayne IN, 46802 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> -- >>>> >>> Justin M. Jones, M.A. >>>> >>> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >>>> >>> (254) 624-9155 >>>> >>> 701 Ewing St. #509-C, Ft. Wayne IN, 46802 >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Justin M. Jones, M.A. >>>> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >>>> (254) 624-9155 >>>> 701 Ewing St. #509-C, Ft. Wayne IN, 46802 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Justin M. Jones, M.A. >> [email protected] >> (254) 624-9155 >> 701 Ewing St. #509-C, Ft. Wayne IN, 46802 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > -- > Justin M. Jones, M.A. > [email protected] > (254) 624-9155 > 701 Ewing St. #509-C, Ft. Wayne IN, 46802 > > > > > > > -- Lenron Brown Cell: 985-271-2832 Skype: ron.brown762 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Groups.io Links: You receive all messages sent to this group. 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