On 6/26/23 12:16, Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion wrote: > On Mon, Jun 26, 2023 at 9:09 AM Janet Cobb via agora-discussion > <agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote: >> On 6/26/23 12:07, Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion wrote: >>> On Mon, Jun 26, 2023 at 4:27 AM juan via agora-discussion >>> <agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote: >>>> Janet Cobb via agora-discussion [2023-06-25 03:00]: >>>>>> Specifically, at this point in time, it is known that: >>>>>> - Rule UNDEFINED CANNOT amend itself, enact, re-enact, or repeal rules. >>>>> Why not just "cause rule changes"? >>>>> >>>>> In any case, this prohibition is overridden by Rule 105. >>>> Not really. R105 provides the only mechanism for rule change, but nowhere >>>> does it say that other rules cannot restrict changes in particular >>>> circumstances. Isn't it so? >>> In fact, R105 does not directly enable any rule changes at all. Its >>> first sentence says: >>> >>>> When the rules provide that an instrument takes effect.... >>> But by itself, R105 does not make or "provide" that any particular >>> instrument takes effect. So other rules other than R105 have to >>> cause/trigger instruments to change the rules. For Proposals, it's >>> R106 that does the job. For other types of rule changes, it's >>> generally the enabling rule for that type of change (like R2221 for >>> Cleaning). So a rule can prevent itself from taking (certain types >>> of) effect like making rule changes. >>> >>> It's possible to set up a conflict, but it would look like this. >>>> Rule 1000 (power 1): This rule CANNOT cause rule changes. >>>> Rule 1001 (power 2): A player CAN, by announcement, cause R1000 to change >>>> the rules in [particular manner]. >>> Rule 1000 on its own would block itself, and Rule 1001 at a higher >>> power would overrule that blockage. >>> >>> -G. >> >> I don't necessarily buy that a Rule (of power less than 3.2) can prevent >> itself from taking effect under R2141. > I think we're having semantic differences on what "taking effect" > means. But it occurs to me that there's a deep rules tension between > R2141 and R105: > > R2141: >> A rule is a type of instrument that is always taking effect > and R105: >> When the rules provide that an instrument takes effect > The first clause implies "constant effect" and the second clause > implies "trigger effect". So when you have this: > > R2221: >> Any player CAN refile a rule without objection, specifying a new >> title; the rule is retitled to the specified title by this rule. > when that clause is triggered, what exactly is going on with respect > to R2141 and R105? If a rule is constantly "taking effect" R2141, how > does it attach a "when" to the R105 moment of taking effect for the > rule change? > > -G.
Rule 2221 is taking effect at every instant? To me, the construction of the sentence only admits the rule doing the retitling at the instant (or perhaps the instant after?) the refiling. If your contention is that R105 does not permit something continuously taking effect to make rule changes, I see that reading but disagree (and any such interpretation loses an R217 test). -- Janet Cobb Assessor, Rulekeepor, Stonemason
