On Mon, Jun 26, 2023 at 9:09 AM Janet Cobb via agora-discussion <agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote: > > On 6/26/23 12:07, Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion wrote: > > On Mon, Jun 26, 2023 at 4:27 AM juan via agora-discussion > > <agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote: > >> Janet Cobb via agora-discussion [2023-06-25 03:00]: > >>>> Specifically, at this point in time, it is known that: > >>>> - Rule UNDEFINED CANNOT amend itself, enact, re-enact, or repeal rules. > >>> > >>> Why not just "cause rule changes"? > >>> > >>> In any case, this prohibition is overridden by Rule 105. > >> Not really. R105 provides the only mechanism for rule change, but nowhere > >> does it say that other rules cannot restrict changes in particular > >> circumstances. Isn't it so? > > In fact, R105 does not directly enable any rule changes at all. Its > > first sentence says: > > > >> When the rules provide that an instrument takes effect.... > > But by itself, R105 does not make or "provide" that any particular > > instrument takes effect. So other rules other than R105 have to > > cause/trigger instruments to change the rules. For Proposals, it's > > R106 that does the job. For other types of rule changes, it's > > generally the enabling rule for that type of change (like R2221 for > > Cleaning). So a rule can prevent itself from taking (certain types > > of) effect like making rule changes. > > > > It's possible to set up a conflict, but it would look like this. > >> Rule 1000 (power 1): This rule CANNOT cause rule changes. > >> Rule 1001 (power 2): A player CAN, by announcement, cause R1000 to change > >> the rules in [particular manner]. > > Rule 1000 on its own would block itself, and Rule 1001 at a higher > > power would overrule that blockage. > > > > -G. > > > I don't necessarily buy that a Rule (of power less than 3.2) can prevent > itself from taking effect under R2141.
I think we're having semantic differences on what "taking effect" means. But it occurs to me that there's a deep rules tension between R2141 and R105: R2141: > A rule is a type of instrument that is always taking effect and R105: > When the rules provide that an instrument takes effect The first clause implies "constant effect" and the second clause implies "trigger effect". So when you have this: R2221: > Any player CAN refile a rule without objection, specifying a new > title; the rule is retitled to the specified title by this rule. when that clause is triggered, what exactly is going on with respect to R2141 and R105? If a rule is constantly "taking effect" R2141, how does it attach a "when" to the R105 moment of taking effect for the rule change? -G.
