Is there a good microtrenching machine that costs less than a new Lexus? Any recommendations? Our local DOT won’t allow it, but maye on private land if it’s faster/cheaper than drilling? We know a lot about drilling (in house) though, so there’s that.
> On Mar 22, 2025, at 2:45 PM, Chuck McCown <ch...@go-mtc.com> wrote: > > Microtrenching is much faster and cheaper than HDD. > > From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Adam Moffett > Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2025 12:57 PM > To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' <af@af.afmug.com> > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] BEAD > > $15-20/splice was normal in the past. Volume went way up, and the > contractors are in high demand. An NY specific issue that compounded the > problem was a new rule that you have to pay prevailing wage anytime you're > doing work in a ROW where a permit was required. That drove up even the > non-PW work because they'd rather do the PW work and there's enough volume > that they can be choosy about it. > > Check out the numbers below from a contractor. This chart makes me want to > buy a splice truck and quit this whole "engineer" thing. If you want to send > a crew to NY we'll put them to work and they'll get rates like these all day > long. > > > > PW > > Non PW > per location > ct Splice Loc > Rate > ct Splice Loc > Rate > OFDC/ Wall Panel > 0 > $72.00 > 0 > $45.00 > 450B > 0 > $60.00 > 0 > $37.50 > 450D > 0 > $52.00 > 0 > $32.50 > 600D > 0 > $48.00 > 0 > $30.00 > > > Underground is a separate nightmare. We do it for make-ready avoidance or in > neighborhoods without existing aerial. Almost everything needs HDD, and the > per foot rates would make your eyes water. Or maybe make your mouth water if > you have a crew that will travel to NY for work. > > We do have internal crews, and they are absolutely less costly than the > contractors, but scaling requires more hands. We also need to be able to > ramp up and down, and it's bad optics to hire a bunch of people for > construction work and then have to lay them off when the projects are > finished and you're waiting to get your next build areas approved by the > board. > > This is the much-vaunted efficiency of corporations. The secret is they're > not efficient at all -they just have lots of capital to make things happen. > Where your ROI is 10% theirs might be 5%, but 5% of $100 billion is more than > 10% of whatever you have. > > -Adam > > > From: AF on behalf of Chuck McCown > Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2025 2:07 PM > To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] BEAD > > I learned my lesson on make ready years ago, so I am 100% underground now. > And frankly, I only splice what I need on the large count cables. We splice > them ourselves so not much cost there. I have never seen $41/burn before. > Most of the time when we were burning for money we were happy to get $16. > BTW, I hate splicing ribbon. Seems almost impossible to get 12 perfect > splices. > > From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Adam Moffett > Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2025 11:59 AM > To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' <af@af.afmug.com > <mailto:af@af.afmug.com>> > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] BEAD > > Yeah, city and county permits aren't usually bad. People mean different > things when they say "permit", though. The elco technically is licensing us > to make an attachment to a pole, but people often call it a "pole permit". > We have to complete all the make ready before we're licensed to attach and > make ready is usually the killer. Pole attachment application fees have been > north of $150/pole in NY since about 2015 when the Elco's outsourced the > engineering work. NYDOT permits need engineer stamped drawings, and the > details they require are time consuming. RR crossings can be ridiculous. > Overall, the cable and placement of the cable makes up about 1/3 of the cost. > So we do spend twice as much on all the crap it takes to get there. > > In that light it's very tempting to say that placing a 288 vs a 96 isn't that > big of a deal, but it does start to look like a big deal once you add > everything up. Contractors charge per splice. Butt splicing a 288 is like > $12,000....more if it's prevailing wage. Your reel length is constrained by > the size and weight of reel that your equipment can handle. Corning ALTOS > 288F weighs twice as much as their 96F, so your doing 3x the splices twice as > often for ultimately 6x the splicing cost. It also means bigger closures > everywhere you're tapping into that cable. It does all add up. > > -Adam > > > > From: AF on behalf of Chuck McCown > Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2025 11:29 AM > To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] BEAD > > I have not found permitting, engineering or fees to be all the expensive as > long as you are not dealing with federal lands. Most cities are very > reasonable. > > -----Original Message----- > From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mark Radabaugh > Sent: Friday, March 21, 2025 5:54 PM > To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group <af@af.afmug.com > <mailto:af@af.afmug.com>> > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] BEAD > > The extra fiber needed to do AE isn’t a big deal when you are building > centralized split architecture in mid to dense population areas, but it > becomes pretty cost prohibitive quickly in low density and with NG2-PON on > the horizon with the capability of delivering 10G/10G over a 40G capacity PON > I don’t see much need for AE anytime soon. > > Why is is so expensive? Fiber isn’t expensive - it’s the permitting, > engineering, fees to every government entity, paperwork, etc. that you have > to pay. > > Mark > > > On Mar 21, 2025, at 4:49 PM, dbernardi <dberna...@zitomedia.net > > <mailto:dberna...@zitomedia.net>> wrote: > > > > > > > > But the expensive/important part (fiber) is in place. If the gubment is > > going to piss away tax dollars for unserved/underserved broadband, fiber > > construction seems like a decent urinal. > > > > XGS-PON can co-exist with GPON on the same fiber so eventual upgrades are > > fairly easy. Do combo GPON/XGS-PON at the OLT out of the gate so a CPE > > swap is the only thing require for an upgrade to a shared 10Gb service. > > When XGS-PON isn't enough bandwidth for the 32 subscribers on a PON, I'd > > rather replace equipment at either end than deal with another construction > > project. Or do a 1:16 split. > > > > Preparing for AE when doing the construction is probably worthwhile too > > even if you only light for PON initially, or mix/match. The cost of > > deploying high count fiber cable isn't that significant in the big picture. > > > > And why does fiber construction have to be so (artificially?) expensive. > > Buy America will certainly make broadband deployments more expensive but > > that's a good thing if it truly provides jobs and manufacturing investment, > > but I have my doubts. > > > > > > > > On 3/21/2025 2:04 PM, Josh Luthman wrote: > >> Is GPON good enough? That can only do gigabit and each port is 2.5G. > >> Should these projects require NGPON? Or maybe every location should have > >> AE so they can do 100G to start with. > >> On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 2:01 PM Steve Jones <thatoneguyst...@gmail.com > >> <mailto:thatoneguyst...@gmail.com>> wrote: > >> Because in X years they won't be. With fiber they will be upon the > >> same Infrastructure. > >> On Fri, Mar 21, 2025, 10:59 AM Josh Luthman > >> <j...@imaginenetworksllc.com <mailto:j...@imaginenetworksllc.com>> > >> wrote: > >> But people that currently have fixed wireless of 100x20 are > >> sufficiently served? How does that make any sense? > >> On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 11:44 AM Steve Jones > >> <thatoneguyst...@gmail.com <mailto:thatoneguyst...@gmail.com>> > >> wrote: > >> they should not allow fixed wireless, they never should have > >> allowed technology with a short shelf life > >> On Thu, Mar 20, 2025 at 9:17 AM Adam Moffett > >> <dmmoff...@gmail.com <mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com>> wrote: > >> Well.... > >> https://bsky.app/profile/craigsilverman.bsky.social/ > >> post/3lkiye5n2dk2p <https://bsky.app/profile/ > >> <https://bsky.app/profile/%0b> > >> craigsilverman.bsky.social/post/3lkiye5n2dk2p> > >> https://www.reddit.com/r/technology/s/seq3uoU1L5 > >> <https://www.reddit.com/r/technology/s/seq3uoU1L5> > >> The director of BEAD quit. He says the previous rules > >> interpreted the bill to mean that only FTTH would meet > >> the performance and future-proofing requirements. He is > >> claiming that there are proposed rule changes that will > >> allow Starlink but not allow fixed wireless. I don't > >> know whether the changes /intentionally/ benefit > >> Starlink, but this guy is crying foul and felt strongly > >> enough about it to resign over it. > >> -Adam > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >> *From:* AF on behalf of Ken Hohhof > >> *Sent:* Thursday, March 20, 2025 12:19 AM > >> *To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' > >> *Subject:* [AFMUG] BEAD > >> I’m surprised BEAD hasn’t run into problems because the > >> E stands for Equity and DEI is now banned. > >> But if they eliminate the E, would it just be BAD? > >> -- AF mailing list > >> AF@af.afmug.com <mailto:AF@af.afmug.com> > >> <mailto:AF@af.afmug.com> > >> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com > >> <http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com> > >> -- AF mailing list > >> AF@af.afmug.com <mailto:AF@af.afmug.com> > >> <mailto:AF@af.afmug.com> > >> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com > >> <http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com> > >> -- AF mailing list > >> AF@af.afmug.com <mailto:AF@af.afmug.com> <mailto:AF@af.afmug.com> > >> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com > >> <[http://%0b]http:// > >> af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com> > >> -- AF mailing list > >> AF@af.afmug.com <mailto:AF@af.afmug.com> <mailto:AF@af.afmug.com> > >> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com > >> <[http://%0b]http:// > >> af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com> > > > > > > -- > > AF mailing list > > AF@af.afmug.com <mailto:AF@af.afmug.com> > > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com > > > -- > AF mailing list > AF@af.afmug.com <mailto:AF@af.afmug.com> > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com > > > -- > AF mailing list > AF@af.afmug.com <mailto:AF@af.afmug.com> > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com > -- > AF mailing list > AF@af.afmug.com > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
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