You can vibratory plow 3ft deep right down or across gravel roads too for that matter. Haven't seen any use of Microtrenching in Michigan. I can see benefit for super congested areas where you are avoiding that by going extra shallow. I can't really see the advantage over drilling and we've had contractors drill in some pretty congested areas for well under $10/ft. Maybe microtrenching makes more sense where the ground conditions also make drilling quite difficult? Is this generally done more in heavy rock areas?
On Tue, Mar 25, 2025 at 11:01 AM <ch...@go-mtc.com> wrote: > You can do it in gravel and chip seal, also in dirt. But if dirt, just > plow. Much faster and cheaper. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: AF <af-boun...@af.afmug.com> On Behalf Of Ken Hohhof > Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2025 7:21 AM > To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' <af@af.afmug.com> > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] BEAD > > Meanwhile our illustrious state senate has a bill to eliminate all > townships under 5000 population and absorb them into the county. So the > county would be responsible for road maintenance and snow plowing. And ROW > issues? > > I'm told right now when someone wants to bury fiber along a township road > the township basically says sure, whatever. I don't know if the land next > to the road belongs to the township or the homeowners. As fa as > microtrenching, we have a lot of gravel and chip-and-seal roads, I don't > think you microtrench those. Or maybe you can, but people would question > why you are putting it under the road when you can put it next to the road > in the dirt. You're going to have to put handholes there anyway. > > -----Original Message----- > From: AF <af-boun...@af.afmug.com> On Behalf Of Mike Hammett > Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2025 7:39 AM > To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group <af@af.afmug.com> > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] BEAD > > I don't have any court history to prove one way or the other, but the > state and the IL Farm Bureau both say that there are no public easements on > township roads. > > A prescriptive easement or Right of way is probably limited to whomever > has placed it and not the public at large. Around here, each of the > utilities does have a private easement alongside public roads. > > > > > -- > Mike Hammett > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: ch...@go-mtc.com > To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" <af@af.afmug.com> > Sent: Monday, March 24, 2025 6:08:45 PM > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] BEAD > > > > > > If the road and shoulders have been open to the public and used by the > public for a number of years, like 20+ years, there exists a prescriptive > public right of way that you can use. It is generally an adverse possession > doctrine. > > > > Best Regards, > > Chuck McCown > > McCown Technology Corporation > > 8401 N Commerce Drive > > Lake Point, Utah 84074 > > 801-250-9503 Office > > www.microtrench-blades.com > > www.mccowntech.com > > www.terabitnetworks.com > > > > > From: AF <af-boun...@af.afmug.com> On Behalf Of Chris Fabien > Sent: Monday, March 24, 2025 11:47 AM > To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group <af@af.afmug.com> > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] BEAD > > > > > "Rural side roads in IL are a bitch because the government doesn't own the > underlying asset, so you still have to get an easement from every landowner > along the way." > > > > > > This seems like insanity to me... how does anything ever get ran > underground? Back 10 years ago when I thought ROW permitting was hard I > tried to get private easements for a very small fiber project. It only took > me about 6 homeowners to get to Mrs. "My daddy was a lawyer and told me > never sign an easement" and that's where the project stopped until we > figured out ROW permitting. > > > How is it that the road exists but there's no really a right of way for it > to be there? I know this situation exists in some states or there are > states where ROW ownership/width is practically lost to history. It's just > impossible to wrap my head around coming from a state with a very clear and > well defined public ROW law. I suppose I am grateful for that! > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 24, 2025 at 1:15 PM < ch...@go-mtc.com > wrote: > > > > > > > OK so frost heave will what? Displace conduits placed 16” below the > asphalt, but not the gasline at 24”? > > > > > > From: AF < af-boun...@af.afmug.com > On Behalf Of Adam Moffett > Sent: Monday, March 24, 2025 7:51 AM > To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' < af@af.afmug.com > > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] BEAD > > > > > It's not generally done around here. There's a common belief that frost > heave will be an issue. I think you've disagreed with that, but I don't > know enough to argue either side of it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: AF on behalf of Chuck McCown > Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2025 5:45 PM > To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] BEAD > > > > > Microtrenching is much faster and cheaper than HDD. > > > > > From: AF [ mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Adam Moffett > Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2025 12:57 PM > To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' < af@af.afmug.com > > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] BEAD > > > > $15-20/splice was normal in the past. Volume went way up, and the > contractors are in high demand. An NY specific issue that compounded the > problem was a new rule that you have to pay prevailing wage anytime you're > doing work in a ROW where a permit was required. That drove up even the > non-PW work because they'd rather do the PW work and there's enough volume > that they can be choosy about it. > > > > Check out the numbers below from a contractor. This chart makes me want to > buy a splice truck and quit this whole "engineer" thing. If you want to > send a crew to NY we'll put them to work and they'll get rates like these > all day long. > > > > > > > > PW > > > > Non PW > > > per location > > ct Splice Loc > > Rate > > ct Splice Loc > > Rate > > > OFDC/ Wall Panel > > 0 > > $72.00 > > 0 > > $45.00 > > > 450B > > 0 > > $60.00 > > 0 > > $37.50 > > > 450D > > 0 > > $52.00 > > 0 > > $32.50 > > > 600D > > 0 > > $48.00 > > 0 > > $30.00 > > > > > > Underground is a separate nightmare. We do it for make-ready avoidance or > in neighborhoods without existing aerial. Almost everything needs HDD, and > the per foot rates would make your eyes water. Or maybe make your mouth > water if you have a crew that will travel to NY for work. > > > > We do have internal crews, and they are absolutely less costly than the > contractors, but scaling requires more hands. We also need to be able to > ramp up and down, and it's bad optics to hire a bunch of people for > construction work and then have to lay them off when the projects are > finished and you're waiting to get your next build areas approved by the > board. > > > > This is the much-vaunted efficiency of corporations. The secret is they're > not efficient at all -they just have lots of capital to make things happen. > Where your ROI is 10% theirs might be 5%, but 5% of $100 billion is more > than 10% of whatever you have. > > > > -Adam > > > > > > > > From: AF on behalf of Chuck McCown > Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2025 2:07 PM > To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] BEAD > > > > I learned my lesson on make ready years ago, so I am 100% underground now. > And frankly, I only splice what I need on the large count cables. We splice > them ourselves so not much cost there. I have never seen $41/burn before. > Most of the time when we were burning for money we were happy to get $16. > BTW, I hate splicing ribbon. Seems almost impossible to get 12 perfect > splices. > > > > > From: AF [ mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Adam Moffett > Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2025 11:59 AM > To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' < af@af.afmug.com > > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] BEAD > > > > Yeah, city and county permits aren't usually bad. People mean different > things when they say "permit", though. The elco technically is licensing us > to make an attachment to a pole, but people often call it a "pole permit". > We have to complete all the make ready before we're licensed to attach and > make ready is usually the killer. Pole attachment application fees have > been north of $150/pole in NY since about 2015 when the Elco's outsourced > the engineering work. NYDOT permits need engineer stamped drawings, and the > details they require are time consuming. RR crossings can be ridiculous. > Overall, the cable and placement of the cable makes up about 1/3 of the > cost. So we do spend twice as much on all the crap it takes to get there. > > > > In that light it's very tempting to say that placing a 288 vs a 96 isn't > that big of a deal, but it does start to look like a big deal once you add > everything up. Contractors charge per splice. Butt splicing a 288 is like > $12,000....more if it's prevailing wage. Your reel length is constrained by > the size and weight of reel that your equipment can handle. Corning ALTOS > 288F weighs twice as much as their 96F, so your doing 3x the splices twice > as often for ultimately 6x the splicing cost. It also means bigger closures > everywhere you're tapping into that cable. It does all add up. > > > > -Adam > > > > > > > > > > From: AF on behalf of Chuck McCown > Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2025 11:29 AM > To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] BEAD > > > > I have not found permitting, engineering or fees to be all the expensive > as long as you are not dealing with federal lands. Most cities are very > reasonable. > > -----Original Message----- > From: AF [ mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Mark Radabaugh > Sent: Friday, March 21, 2025 5:54 PM > To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group < af@af.afmug.com > > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] BEAD > > The extra fiber needed to do AE isn’t a big deal when you are building > centralized split architecture in mid to dense population areas, but it > becomes pretty cost prohibitive quickly in low density and with NG2-PON on > the horizon with the capability of delivering 10G/10G over a 40G capacity > PON I don’t see much need for AE anytime soon. > > Why is is so expensive? Fiber isn’t expensive - it’s the permitting, > engineering, fees to every government entity, paperwork, etc. that you have > to pay. > > Mark > > > On Mar 21, 2025, at 4:49 PM, dbernardi < dberna...@zitomedia.net > > wrote: > > > > > > > > But the expensive/important part (fiber) is in place. If the gubment is > going to piss away tax dollars for unserved/underserved broadband, fiber > construction seems like a decent urinal. > > > > XGS-PON can co-exist with GPON on the same fiber so eventual upgrades > are fairly easy. Do combo GPON/XGS-PON at the OLT out of the gate so a CPE > swap is the only thing require for an upgrade to a shared 10Gb service. > When XGS-PON isn't enough bandwidth for the 32 subscribers on a PON, I'd > rather replace equipment at either end than deal with another construction > project. Or do a 1:16 split. > > > > Preparing for AE when doing the construction is probably worthwhile too > even if you only light for PON initially, or mix/match. The cost of > deploying high count fiber cable isn't that significant in the big picture. > > > > And why does fiber construction have to be so (artificially?) expensive. > Buy America will certainly make broadband deployments more expensive but > that's a good thing if it truly provides jobs and manufacturing investment, > but I have my doubts. > > > > > > > > On 3/21/2025 2:04 PM, Josh Luthman wrote: > >> Is GPON good enough? That can only do gigabit and each port is 2.5G. > Should these projects require NGPON? Or maybe every location should have AE > so they can do 100G to start with. > >> On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 2:01 PM Steve Jones < thatoneguyst...@gmail.com > < mailto:thatoneguyst...@gmail.com >> wrote: > >> Because in X years they won't be. With fiber they will be upon the > >> same Infrastructure. > >> On Fri, Mar 21, 2025, 10:59 AM Josh Luthman < > >> j...@imaginenetworksllc.com < mailto:j...@imaginenetworksllc.com >> > >> wrote: > >> But people that currently have fixed wireless of 100x20 are > >> sufficiently served? How does that make any sense? > >> On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 11:44 AM Steve Jones < > >> thatoneguyst...@gmail.com < mailto:thatoneguyst...@gmail.com >> > >> wrote: > >> they should not allow fixed wireless, they never should have allowed > >> technology with a short shelf life On Thu, Mar 20, 2025 at 9:17 AM > >> Adam Moffett < dmmoff...@gmail.com < mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com >> > >> wrote: > >> Well.... > >> https://bsky.app/profile/craigsilverman.bsky.social/ > >> post/3lkiye5n2dk2p < https://bsky.app/profile/ > >> craigsilverman.bsky.social/post/3lkiye5n2dk2p> > >> https://www.reddit.com/r/technology/s/seq3uoU1L5 > >> < https://www.reddit.com/r/technology/s/seq3uoU1L5 > The director of > >> BEAD quit. He says the previous rules interpreted the bill to mean > >> that only FTTH would meet the performance and future-proofing > >> requirements. He is claiming that there are proposed rule changes > >> that will allow Starlink but not allow fixed wireless. I don't know > >> whether the changes /intentionally/ benefit Starlink, but this guy is > >> crying foul and felt strongly enough about it to resign over it. > >> -Adam > >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> --- > >> *From:* AF on behalf of Ken Hohhof > >> *Sent:* Thursday, March 20, 2025 12:19 AM > >> *To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' > >> *Subject:* [AFMUG] BEAD > >> I’m surprised BEAD hasn’t run into problems because the E stands for > >> Equity and DEI is now banned. > >> But if they eliminate the E, would it just be BAD? > >> -- AF mailing list > >> AF@af.afmug.com < mailto:AF@af.afmug.com > > >> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com > >> < http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com > > >> -- AF mailing list > >> AF@af.afmug.com < mailto:AF@af.afmug.com > > >> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com > >> < http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com > > >> -- AF mailing list > >> AF@af.afmug.com < mailto:AF@af.afmug.com > > >> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com > >> <[http://%0b][http://] http:// > >> af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com > > >> -- AF mailing list > >> AF@af.afmug.com < mailto:AF@af.afmug.com > > >> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com > >> <[http://%0b][http://] http:// > >> af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com > > > > > > > -- > > AF mailing list > > AF@af.afmug.com > > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com > > > -- > AF mailing list > AF@af.afmug.com > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com > > > -- > AF mailing list > AF@af.afmug.com > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com > > -- > AF mailing list > AF@af.afmug.com > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com > -- > AF mailing list > AF@af.afmug.com > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com > > > -- > AF mailing list > AF@af.afmug.com > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com > > > > -- > AF mailing list > AF@af.afmug.com > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com > > > -- > AF mailing list > AF@af.afmug.com > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >
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