From the Wikipedia article on the Citizens United court decision and the dissent written by Justice Stevens. (Also interesting the decision overturned part of a campaign reform act sponsored by John McCain and Russ Feingold. How's that for reaching across the aisle?)
Stevens argued that the unique qualities of corporations and other artificial legal entities made them dangerous to democratic elections. These legal entities, he argued, have perpetual life, the ability to amass large sums of money, limited liability, no ability to vote, no morality, no purpose outside profit-making, and no loyalty. Therefore, he argued, the courts should permit legislatures to regulate corporate participation in the political process. Legal entities, Stevens wrote, are not "We the People" for whom our Constitution was established.[26] Therefore, he argued, they should not be given speech protections under the First Amendment. The First Amendment, he argued, protects individual self-expression, self-realization and the communication of ideas. Corporate spending is the "furthest from the core of political expression" protected by the Constitution, he argued, citing Federal Election Commission v. Beaumont,[38] and corporate spending on politics should be viewed as a business transaction designed by the officers or the boards of directors for no purpose other than profit-making. Stevens called corporate spending "more transactional than ideological". -----Original Message----- From: AF <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Robert Andrews Sent: Friday, November 20, 2020 5:22 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT: this press conference But they can't go to jail or face the death penalty, so they aren't people. And should not have any of the rights of people. Do the crime pay the time. Again PG&E _killed_ 88 people through negligence paying a billion or 50 billion dollars doesn't make up for that. And the bankruptcy hurt the shareholders but not the company. On 11/20/2020 02:14 PM, Bill Prince wrote: > I wasn't talking about voting; that would be blatant. However, when it > comes to political campaigns, I have an issue. I don't see any way out > of it, but it tends to tip the balance away from the common citizen. > > > bp > <part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com> > > On 11/20/2020 1:35 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote: >> >> I never said corps should get to vote. Just that they are treated as >> people in most aspects of the law. >> >> *From:* AF [mailto:[email protected]] *On Behalf Of *Bill >> Prince >> *Sent:* Friday, November 20, 2020 1:10 PM >> *To:* [email protected] >> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT: this press conference >> >> So if Joe Corp sits on the boards of 5 corporations, he gets a voice >> as a citizen, and also 5 more times as a member of those boards? Does >> that seem fair or right? >> >> bp >> <part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com> >> >> On 11/20/2020 11:29 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote: >> >> As a matter of semantics and law. Corporations are people. They >> pay taxes, they have rights, essentially all the constitutional >> rights. Other than having a heartbeat, in a lawsuit or contract >> if you did not already know, the other party could be human or a >> paper entity and you would never know. >> >> I agree that corporations should not be able to fund politics >> without limit. But I remember the days of aggregating dozens of >> individual doner checks and delivering them all to a congressman >> in on envelope. >> >> Moreover PACs can do whatever they want with money, so what >> difference does it make if PACs have such liberty? >> >> *From:* AF [mailto:[email protected]] *On Behalf Of *Bill Prince >> *Sent:* Friday, November 20, 2020 12:17 PM >> *To:* [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT: this press conference >> >> I agree with that. I do not in any way see how a corporation can >> be considered "people". Doesn't that give the constituents behind >> a corporation outsized influence (because corporations are made of >> people who theoretically represent themselves)? >> >> The way it is now (partly or largely because of Citizens United), >> money equals speech. Except that if you don't have money, you get >> no voice. That is fundamentally broken, and I don't see how we get >> out of that. >> >> bp >> >> <part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com> >> >> On 11/20/2020 11:11 AM, Ken Hohhof wrote: >> >> Citizens United created a problem. >> >> Primaries also create a big problem, whether for “safe” or >> contested seats. Candidates must cater to the extreme wing of >> their party or get “primaried” from the fringe. So if each >> party is 50%, and the extreme left and right are 50% of that, >> you get the candidate that appealed to the 25%. Even if >> center-right plus center-left is 50%, they don’t matter, >> because of the 2 party system and the primary system. >> >> *From:* AF <[email protected]> >> <mailto:[email protected]> *On Behalf Of *Chuck Macenski >> *Sent:* Friday, November 20, 2020 1:01 PM >> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group <[email protected]> >> <mailto:[email protected]> >> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT: this press conference >> >> I believe that many (most?) of them do care. I think they are >> caught in a system where they are forced to play their tribal >> roles or risk having no impact. I think that the influence of >> money in the political system is one of the factors that has >> led us here. >> >> That said, some of them have more integrity than others, some >> are driven by the need to amass power (I consider that a >> character flaw), and many (most?) voters are driven by emotion. >> >> On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 12:41 PM Mark - Myakka Technologies >> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> >> Darin, >> >> And yet here we sit harassing each other while they sit up >> there in Washington collecting their nice large paychecks, >> pocketing some lobbying money, having the best healthcare >> one can get, patting each other on the back and not really >> doing anything productive. >> >> We are at the point where people from either side are >> willing to destroy their lives over their party >> affiliation. Do you really think any of them up there >> give a shit about us? Things will never get fixed. >> Because if they fix it, there will be nothing to rile up >> the sheep. >> >> >> This is equivalent to the obnoxious guy at the sports bar >> rooting for "his" team. When they win he'll be yelling in >> your face "WE, did it". "WE", unless you ordering your >> 10th beer and and downing your 20th chicken wing had a >> bearing on the game, "YOU" had nothing to do with it. >> >> These aren't OUR parties anymore. They no longer >> represent the people. As long as they keep the people >> arguing among themselves, we won't notice them >> accomplishing nothing. >> >> Until we re-align the US and THEM from RED and BLUE back >> to the people and OUR representatives we are doomed to >> relive this every two years. >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Best regards, >> Mark mailto:[email protected] >> >> Myakka Technologies, Inc. >> www.Myakka.com <http://www.Myakka.com> >> >> ------ >> >> Friday, November 20, 2020, 12:46:23 PM, you wrote: >> >> >> >> >> Every politician SHOULD break from their party if they >> feel a different way about an issue. I don't believe in >> "falling in line" for everything. >> >> Good people think for themselves, not what their party's >> platform is. >> >> I'm fiscally a Republican but for human rights and >> equality, I'm a Democrat. >> >> Republicans have a very hard time showing they care about >> anyone other than white men. They need to stop treating >> women, blacks, gays, trans, different people as anything >> less than. And for gosh sake, stop trying to bring >> religion into Government. Have they not heard of >> separation of church and state?!?! Abortion should not be >> a federal government issue. >> >> On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 11:32 AM Adam Moffett >> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> Mitt Romney is apparently willing to split from his party >> when he feels strongly about something. Whether that >> means he's a "RINO" or it means he has personal integrity >> seems to be a matter of opinion. I'm trying to think of a >> Democratic legislator who would break with party lines to >> agree with a Republican position on something.....coming >> up blank. Is Romney a Unicorn in that respect? >> >> On 11/20/2020 12:22 PM, Robert wrote: >> >> >> >> >> It would have been a really tough choice between Mitt and >> Biden for me. Probably would have crossed to Mitt. Not >> that I am necessarily a democrat but I really don't like >> what the republican congress has become besides Mitt. >> >> On 11/20/20 9:15 AM, Adam Moffett wrote: >> >> >> >> >> I don't think anyone really knows for sure what he's >> worth, and that's part of how it's so easy to build >> different narratives about it. >> He seems to have received around $400 million from his >> parents. About a million from a trust fund and the rest >> from a variety of revenue streams they set up for him. If >> he's worth $2.5 billion today, that would imply something >> like 5% annual growth. That's not an epic failure, but >> it's pretty modest. Except guesses about his net worth >> range from $700mil to $7billion, and even he is >> inconsistent in what he says about it. He's somewhere >> from terrible, to ok, to really good and everyone gets to >> fill in the blanks with their own version. >> I don't hate him, but I am embarrassed of him. Every time >> I hear him speak, something unbelievable comes out. His >> behavior before and during his presidency demonstrates >> deep moral failings. His messaging seems to be about >> symbolic emotional cues without any regard to factuality >> (aka bullshitting). I don't blame anybody for voting for >> him in 2016. When it was Hillary Clinton against an >> unknown outsider, it's easy to say "let's give this >> outsider a shot." I think at this point he's made it very >> clear that he doesn't know what to do with his office. >> I don't think Biden was anybody's first choice either, but >> if it comes to the lesser of evils then Biden seems the >> lesser. >> -Adam >> >> >> On 11/20/2020 10:47 AM, Mark - Myakka Technologies wrote: >> >> >> >> >> Robert, >> >> You guys are right. He is the Jacques Clouseau of the >> business world. Just fumbling and bumbling his way for >> the past 40 years. No one has caught on to his secret. >> He is just an idiot that luckily is able to get bigger >> idiots to back him. He has been cheating the IRS for years >> and years. Luckily for the IRS, his tax returns will be >> released and all the armchair accounts will be able to >> help the IRS do a proper audit. >> >> I understand your pure hatred of him. He is not the most >> likable person. But, please he is a business man. We have >> no idea what his books look like or where his loans are. >> He has undertaken some risky investments and deals over >> the years. Some work, some don't, it is business. I guess >> successful is a relative term. >> >> >> -- >> Best regards, >> Mark mailto:[email protected] >> >> Myakka Technologies, Inc. >> www.Myakka.com <http://www.Myakka.com> >> >> ------ >> >> Friday, November 20, 2020, 10:00:21 AM, you wrote: >> >> >> >> >> Which would be the perfect example of the propaganda that >> has propped him up for the last 40 years. Well now the >> chickens will come home to roost. He has a billion >> dollars of loans to renegotiate ( gee guess why he wants >> to be in charge of the party, access to truckloads of cash >> ) and the IRS to convince that his write offs were real >> now that they are going to go under public review.. Could >> be interesting... >> >> On 11/20/20 6:25 AM, Ken Hohhof wrote: >> >> >> >> >> Re: [AFMUG] OT: this press conference >> Trump was never a successful businessman, that is a myth. >> Mitt yes, Donald no. >> >> *From:* AF <[email protected]> >> <mailto:[email protected]> *On Behalf Of *Mark - >> Myakka Technologies >> *Sent:* Friday, November 20, 2020 8:03 AM >> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group <[email protected]> >> <mailto:[email protected]> >> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT: this press conference >> >> Darin, >> >> Trump was not presidential material, that is a fact. He >> is a businessman not a politician. He had no idea on how >> government worked. He was going in to the job with an >> outsiders view of politics. He crashed the Washington >> wedding and they didn't like it. He brought his friends >> and family. The man didn't stand a chance. The left >> started calling for impeachment before he was inaugurated. >> Hell some of them even made a big stink that they weren't >> even going to show for his inauguration being he was >> illegitimate. >> >> Frankly the right was no help at the beginning either, >> they didn't support him. He surrounded himself with a >> bunch of outsiders that didn't know the unwritten rules of >> Washington. >> >> The media does lean left. They were embarrassed, they told >> us for months Hillary was going to be the next President. >> They hate Trump and Trump hates them. Once the media >> figured out how to push his buttons, it was just a big >> game for them. >> >> He was a lone wolf with no support at all. Seemed like >> everyone was against him, except for the people that voted >> for him. >> >> Let's assume he was the worst president ever, one soul >> away from being the devil himself. Seems like we survived. >> Almost 75M people voted to keep him in office. You can >> dismiss that as cult or a bunch of uneducated rednecks, >> but is is still 75M people. Contrary to popular belief, he >> did do some good things. HBC got multi-year funding. He >> didn't start any new wars. >> >> I was listening to a Obama doing an interview yesterday. >> He was talking about the hard time he had in office with >> the birther stuff. He made a very interesting comment. >> He said that some people didn't know him. If they only >> listened to FOX news, they only knew a caricature of him. >> The exact same thing can be said about Trump. >> >> >> -- >> Best regards, >> Mark mailto:[email protected] >> >> Myakka Technologies, Inc. >> www.Myakka.com <http://www.Myakka.com> >> >> ------ >> >> Thursday, November 19, 2020, 11:58:10 PM, you wrote: >> >> >> >> >> The only reason the media ripped on trump is because he >> was a disgrace to the high office of President. He made a >> joke of our country. He bullied, tweeted, and lied for his >> entire term. >> >> If a Democrat acted the same way trump did, I would fully >> expect all news to rip on them too. Trump further divided >> our country, shit on our allies, and shared hateful >> conspiracy theories. >> >> He craves attention, refuses to lose, and any time he >> tried to do something good he would ruin it with some >> tweet. He fired more staff than any other president in >> history. He's paranoid, rude, and holds grudges. >> >> He shows no empathy for anyone. He doesn't show >> compassion. He doesn't show love. He doesn't forgive. He >> doesn't forget. He doesn't lead. >> >> He never talks about his family. He expects loyalty and >> for people to bend the knee. >> >> I've never been more embarrassed for our country when he >> was elected. We needed a politician in office, not a >> celebrity. He rocked the boat but not in a good way. >> >> Give me a stable republican and I may vote for them if >> they care about every American, not just their base. >> >> Sidenote: I was grocery shopping tonight and someone was >> wearing a shirt that said: Trump 2020. FUCK YOUR FEELINGS >> >> Real classy trump supporter. Wearing a shirt like that at >> our local Hyvee with kids and families shopping. I'm >> embarrassed people think it's ok to wear things like that. >> 1st amendment allows them to but it's still disrespectful. >> >> >> >> On Thu, Nov 19, 2020, 10:20 PM Mark - Myakka Technologies >> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> It doesn't matter who won, the outcome is the same. All >> of us should have been intelligent enough to predict this. >> The only way this would have ended well for the country >> would have been a landslide for Biden. Not saying Biden >> is good for the country, but it was the only chance we may >> have had not to deal with this bullshit. >> >> If Trump won in a landslide, mainstream media would just >> continue with the non-stop bashing for another four >> years. He would have been declared an illegitimate >> president again. The story would be the same as last time >> "look at the polls, no way he could have won, must of >> cheated". We would be watching cities burn right now. >> >> If roles were reversed and Trump had the slim lead, the >> Biden camp would be doing the same thing the Trump camp is >> doing now. Do you really think Biden would have conceded. >> The only difference, is the mainstream media would have >> been digging deep to find each and every "fake" vote for >> Trump. They would be working overtime. Every story would >> be assumed true and not debated. No winner would be >> declared yet. >> >> When the counting is done, Trump will end up with almost >> 75M votes. That is more that 10M more than Hillary got in >> 2016. About 12M more people voted for Trump this time >> around. More minorities voted for Trump this time around. >> >> Did you really think Trump's base would just accept the >> losing outcome? Did you really think Biden's base would >> have accepted a losing outcome? On the plus side the >> scales tipped to the left, so at least we aren't seeing >> the riots. >> >> This election will never be accepted by half the country, >> just like the last election was never accepted by half the >> country. Only difference is at least on the nightly news >> I won't have to listen to 100% Trump bashing day in and >> day out trying to scare me straight. It was getting >> depressing. Everything was bad news. I swear if Trump >> found the cure for cancer, it would have been spun as bad >> news. >> >> Come February, everything will be reported as unicorns and >> rainbows. Life in the old USA will be great. There will be >> no issues. Fox News will move right center, I don't think >> they will be as hard on Biden as CNN was on Trump. Social >> media will be where all the Trump supports go. But they >> will be banned form the main sites and live on the fringe. >> >> The left has the ball. All these problems that have been >> drilled into our heads for the past 4 years are now their >> issue to fix. They have 2 years to convince us they can >> do a better job. Both the house and senate majorities are >> so thin, either one can flip in two years. >> >> Finally, it really doesn't matter. Our daily lives will >> not change that much. Sure we'll probably have to deal >> with Net Neutrality again. Maybe some type of national >> tax on Internet service is in the future. Maybe another >> healthcare shake up. Maybe there will be some half-assed >> legislation on gun control or immigration, but no real >> fix. The precedent was set in the last 4 years, every >> executive action will be taken to court. >> >> But we'll adapt and continue moving on. We always do. >> >> -- >> Best regards, >> Mark mailto:[email protected] >> >> Myakka Technologies, Inc. >> www.Myakka.com <http://www.Myakka.com> >> >> ------ >> >> Thursday, November 19, 2020, 10:23:07 PM, you wrote: >> >> >> >> >> Steve, >> >> >> https://www.fox2detroit.com/news/wayne-circuit-judge-dismisses-lawsui >> t-against-city-of-detroit-alleging-election-fraud >> >> >> Please read this article and the judge's 13 page ruling on >> what you claim is fraud. You and trump have been shot down >> again. >> >> Judge's are denying these suits left and right, some of >> them getting quite heated in their opinions suggesting >> they shouldn't even be wasting their breath on these >> baseless claims. >> >> On Thu, Nov 19, 2020, 9:01 PM Steve Jones >> <[email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> not going to play your game. I watched the mutt put up the >> cardboard and stand there like a gimp. everyone watched >> when they tried to serve the judges order and were still >> denied access, facts are simply that, facts. >> >> https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/05/media/detroit-windows-covered-ballots-vote-center/index.html >> except the "protesters" were poll watcher, your team cant >> even lie well >> >> https://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2020/11/05/philadelphia-court-decision-poll-watchers-now-allowed-within-6-feet-of-ballot-counting-at-pennsylvania-convention-center/ >> your kind will say that binoculars are good enough. odd >> that judges ruled on something that didnt happen, are you >> saying the judges lied? >> >> just because you dont want it to be true doesnt make >> something "debunked". Just admit there were issues, >> present solutions. 4 years spent pushing a russian >> narrative that was literally debunked and always offered >> without evidence (hint, there was none). pick a single >> narrative and run with said narrative, across the board. >> much like the elder cruelty of putting rudy and joe in the >> spotlight >> >> On Thu, Nov 19, 2020 at 8:21 PM Darin Steffl >> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> Steve, >> >> Cite your sources that poll watchers weren't allowed to >> observe. You won't be able to because in every case so >> far, there have been poll watchers inside watching the >> count in every precinct. >> >> You only saw some angry trump supporters standing outside >> in Detroit trying to get in when there were already 200+ >> republic poll watchers already inside. They put up >> cardboard because the people outside were being distracting. >> >> Every court filing that has been filed so far has proven >> that poll watchers were not kept out. Only "extras" that >> showed up were blocked because you don't need any more >> inside a building than already existed. >> >> >> On Thu, Nov 19, 2020, 8:12 PM Bill Prince >> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Oh sure. We are now using some schmoe in a stocking cap >> for "news"? >> >> Part of the reason we are in the situation we are in is >> that we pay more attention to clowns than they deserve. >> >> -- >> bp >> part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com >> >> On Thu, Nov 19, 2020 at 4:21 PM justsumname >> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBdfxJdlvcE >> >> It is getting interesting, and this election thing is >> still far from over. >> -- >> >> On Thu, Nov 19, 2020 at 2:45 PM Steve Jones >> <[email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> lol, they just elected a guy president with the same >> cruelty, so thats not really much of a thing anymore >> >> On Thu, Nov 19, 2020 at 1:43 PM Ken Hohhof >> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> It’s cruel of people to keep putting Rudy in the public >> eye when clearly he’s not all there anymore, I don’t know >> if it’s dementia or what, but he needs to be sitting on a >> porch somewhere playing checkers, not making a fool of >> himself for the world to see. Of course he’s always been >> a little off, look at his marriage history. I assume >> since he was a lawyer and mayor he wasn’t always like >> this. Or maybe he was. Again, the marriage history. >> >> >> *From:* AF <[email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>> *On Behalf Of *Steve Jones >> *Sent:* Thursday, November 19, 2020 12:46 PM >> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group <[email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>> >> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT: this press conference >> >> I dont know what happened to that guy. hopefully when this >> is said and done we go the way of canada on electronic >> voting. then we put cameras recording the count tables. >> Golden and no need for recounts or weird people like this >> team of lunatics having crazy press conferences. I think >> the media sent their interns instead of reporters >> >> On Thu, Nov 19, 2020 at 12:35 PM Adam Moffett >> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> Guliani told me I could Google Dominion and find out that >> it's owned by Venezuelans. My Google seems to work >> differently from his. >> >> >> On 11/19/2020 1:07 PM, Steve Jones wrote: >> >> >> >> >> jesus christ this broad just referred to themselves as an >> "elite strikeforce team" >> >> On Thu, Nov 19, 2020 at 12:00 PM Bill Prince >> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> Sorry Steve. You lost me at the bakery. >> >> bp >> <part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com> >> On 11/19/2020 9:51 AM, Steve Jones wrote: >> >> >> >> >> While id like my guy to come out on top magically, this >> press conference presents more like a bad SNL skit >> >> -- >> AF mailing list >> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >> >> -- >> AF mailing list >> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >> >> -- >> AF mailing list >> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >> >> -- >> AF mailing list >> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >> >> -- >> AF mailing list >> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >> >> -- >> AF mailing list >> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >> >> -- >> AF mailing list >> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >> >> -- >> AF mailing list >> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >> >> -- >> AF mailing list >> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >> >> -- >> AF mailing list >> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >> >> >> >> -- >> Darin Steffl >> Minnesota WiFi >> www.mnwifi.com <http://www.mnwifi.com/> >> 507-634-WiFi >> Like us on Facebook >> <http://www.facebook.com/minnesotawifi> >> >> -- >> AF mailing list >> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > -- AF mailing list [email protected] http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com -- AF mailing list [email protected] http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
