I believe you're misinformed about bootstrapping Zig. The link to the
Zig README in my previous email is to the section that describes how to
bootstrap Zig *using only a C compiler*. For more details, refer to my
previous email.
The most annoying thing about Zig, potentially, is the "package manager"
in its build system, a component that may well be conceptually redundant
in Plan 9, where processes can have completely different namespaces. I
have a strong suspicion that the build system itself is redundant for
similar reasons.
Regarding Nim (and I concede this is only based on a cursory look): it
doesn't seem to give you as fine a control over memory management as Zig
does. That's why I lumped it in with V as "Zig but worse".
- Willow
On 04/10/2024 03:12, Thaddeus Woskowiak wrote:
Be confused no more: https://n-skvortsov-1997.github.io/reviews/
<https://n-skvortsov-1997.github.io/reviews/>
I found that link after a single search for 'v programming language
controversy' using duck duck go. It was linked from a hacker news post.
There are other resources. The controversy has made the rounds on
numerous tech news sites and forums so it's well known to many. If it
delivers it sounds interesting.
Zig is bootstrapped using c++ so there's no way to natively bootstrap
Zig on 9. Though there was someone on the 9fans discord (that channel is
not affiliated with this mailing list) was working on a native bootstrap
for 9. Though I'm not sure what happened to that project.
There's also Nim. Kinda like a Python that compiles to C or other
languages like JavaScript. Might be the easy to port.
Rust is eh. It looks like line noise and just as ugly as c++. Haven't
really used it but played with it years ago. Wasn't interested in it and
still not interested in it now. Seems very hype driven like the 90's oop
craze. Nothing against r9 but what's the point of it when plan 9 already
boots and does what I need? I'm not drawn to an OS because of the
language it's written in. I'm drawn in by the concepts of the OS. The
language should make programming easier in the sense that you can
translate the program structure in your head into code on the screen and
vice versa. I'm not sure rust accomplishes that from what I've seen.
Go is nice. Feels like it should have come out of bell Labs in the 90's.
Though, I'm not crazy about languages as ecosystems. It makes them big
to the point where building Go is a benchmark for CPU and disk IO on
plan 9. That's too big for my liking. It's also hard to keep the plan 9
port going and some feel that it should go away :-(. Go feels like it
could be a lot smaller.
Seems like Erlang could be ported. Interesting language with a neat
concurrency concept. Distributed language on a distributed OS. Use 9p to
distribute data and Erlang to distribute compute performed on said data.
Distributed all the way down.
Another thing to mention is to look at the qbe compiler backend:
https://c9x.me/compile/ <https://c9x.me/compile/> I've heard it
suggested that this along with cproc could be an interesting light
weight alternative toolchain for plan 9. It is also the back end to the
Hare language, and Ori's Myrddin. Why should GCC and clang/llvm be the
only games in town?
On Thu, Oct 3, 2024, 4:25 PM <d...@squizzler.co.uk
<mailto:d...@squizzler.co.uk>> wrote:
__
I am confused by the divisive views on V. On one hand people who
seem to know their onions speak well of it. @Willow provides helpful
reasons why the project might have started inauspiciously, whereas
by contrast @Noam I feel you cast vague aspersions without evidence.
Perhaps for a fledgeling language all publicity is good publicity?
Certainly I would expect a "controversies" section on the wikipedia
page if it was that toxic as some seem to think.
As for "vibes", I think @Kurmakes an interesting point on the
importance of emotional factors. There seems to be an appetite for a
new language within Plan 9 as evidenced by the wiki page linked in
OP. HarveyOS jumped first (with Rust), but whilst rewriting
everything in rust is trendy (has the right vibes), r9 hardly set
the world on fire. The adoption of Rust in projects such as Linux
may well be driven by emotion, and in a bloated codebase like Linux
it seems to have been a failure. Could the experience of r9 -
despite the vastly more manageable code base of Plan 9 - suggest it
is not the language for Plan9's future?
Looking beyond Rust, could languages like Zig (good call, @Willow)
and maybe V be better candidates?
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