Dogfooding is very important. It's the way we learn how to do things better than we are doing them now (aka: we make mistakes, get feedback and adjust appropriately).
As I noted above, it is pretty clear that we need to focus on improving the /layout experience for the WiX toolset. The WDK did this by incorporating the /layout option into their UI. I expect the answer is for the WiX BA to do the same. Also, I've toyed with putting together a "WiX Toolset Build Machine Edition" Bundle primarily as a way to dogfood the wixstdba. It would target the build machine scenario where you want the minimal pieces installed and you choose your NETFX since WiX command-line tools support NETFX2 or NETFX4. Basically, this would be a lot like the binaries.zip but with automatic MSBuild integration. Anyway, thank you all for feedback. Definitely helps us find the gaps. On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 1:43 PM, Neil Sleightholm <n...@x2systems.com> wrote: > I don't believe there is any value in WiX being a web based install (other > than the very valid point about dog fooding the code). In addition the new > install forces me to install .Net 4.0 just because the installer needs it; > I would like that to be optional as I don't like polluting build machines > with more than it really necessary (I know I could manually install the > files but would rather not). I work in a company that has very little > internet access and have to request downloads, asking someone to download > the exe and then run it with the /Layout is a pain. > > Neil > > -----Original Message----- > From: Albert van Peppen [mailto:alb...@insad.nl] > Sent: 05 March 2012 16:52 > To: chr...@iswix.com; General discussion for Windows Installer XML > toolset. > Subject: Re: [WiX-users] Wow! > > I agree 100% with this. That is basically why I keep the entire history of > WiX in my repository (diskspace isn't that expensive nowadays :) ) > > > Best regards, > > Albert van Peppen > Senior System Engineer > > Insad Grafisch b.v. > Mollevite 28 > 6931 KG Westervoort > The Netherlands > > Phone: *31 (0) 26 319 01 50 > Email: alb...@insad.nl > Website: www.insad.nl > > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: Christopher Painter [mailto:chr...@iswix.com] > Verzonden: 05 March 2012 16:49 > Aan: Rob Mensching; General discussion for Windows Installer XML toolset. > Onderwerp: Re: [WiX-users] Wow! > > Rob, > > Regarding /layout, all developers *SHOULD* be doing it despite losing > those "savings". (Assuming any savings is actually realized based on how > many developers are installing the software. ) > > > Anyone involved in the process of developing software ( especially build > and release engineering ) should have mature policies regarding the > ability to track and archive changes to the development environment. If > I have to rebuild a build machine or developer machine I have to be able > go back and reinstall all of the tools exactly the way they were originally > intended. > > > Relying on content for a web-enabled installer to be available 1,5,10 > years down the road ( we still get requests to rebuild VB6 applications! ) > is a horrible practice as the external dependency is outside of your > control. > You must keep your own archive of the tool to ensure the SLA can b met. > Everyone who understands CM should be doing this. > > > Thus /layout is not only an annoyance to me, it's an antipattern. > > > Chris > > ---------------------------------------- > > From: "Rob Mensching" <r...@robmensching.com> > > Sent: Monday, March 05, 2012 9:38 AM > > To: chr...@iswix.com, "General discussion for Windows Installer XML > toolset." <wix-users@lists.sourceforge.net> > > Subject: Re: [WiX-users] Wow! > > > 1. The WiX install *does* chain NETFX 4 in because that is needed before > the WiX BA can show UI (since the WiX BA is written in WPF). > > 2. Dogfooding is the primary reason. > > 3. We save *significant* bandwidth using Burn because during normal > installs it only downloads the portions of the product that you actually > need. > > If *everyone* start using /layout those savings will be lost. <smile/> > > 4. The wixstdba UI is not as functional as we'd like but the web install > experience is significantly better. Click download like, survive the web > browser screening process (this gets better if we can get WiX signed), > click "Run" and in a second the ~500kb exe is verified and running. Then > you have a nice experience while the process downloads and installs only > the parts you need. > > Admittedly, if you want a full layout, then you do "Save" and have to run > another command-line. That scenario is not optimized. > > 5. ISOs are inferior to /layout because they do not get the built-in > robust downloading of Burn. You could use a 3rd party downloader but that > 3rd party download cannot verify the downloaded ISO file the way Burn will > verify and retry each file. > > > We are moving the cheese a little bit here to challenge the status quo and > see if we can't make things better for advanced users and less-advanced > users at the same time. My takeaway is that we may have deprioritized the > /layout scenario too much and should evaluate that going into the home > stretch. > > > > On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 7:06 AM, Christopher Painter <chr...@iswix.com> > wrote: > > Other then being allowing WiX to dogfood Burn, what benefit does the WiX > > installer even gain from using Burn? I thought the old Mondo UI looked > > just fine and it was a simpler 1 MSI story to boot. My experience with > > the Burn based WiX installers is that user experience is inferior relative > > to what it was. It doesn't seem like to me that WiX.msi needed any of > the > > capabilities of Burn as it doesn't do things like install the .NET > > framework for you or chain multiple packages together. > > > Personally, I still want my Visual Studio in ISO format and when SP1 comes > > out I'd appreciate a service release that contains it. I get sick of > > spending 20 minutes to install Visual Studio and 60 minutes to patch it. > > > ---------------------------------------- > > > From: "Bruce Cran" <br...@cran.org.uk> > > > Sent: Monday, March 05, 2012 8:43 AM > > > To: "General discussion for Windows Installer XML toolset." > > <wix-users@lists.sourceforge.net> > > > Subject: Re: [WiX-users] Wow! > > > On 05/03/2012 14:01, keith.doug...@statcan.gc.ca wrote: > > > > The below news is somewhat distressing for those of us who have no > > Internet connection at all on our development workstations and have to use > > others (non-development machines) to get such access. Is downloading the > > /layout way and then (say) moving a directory or something going to work, > > or does /layout change other things (registry)? If it is going to work, > > will the procedure be well documented? If not, what do you propose people > > in my sort of situation to do? > > > > > > > > (And if Visual Studio 2011 works either of those ways we're going to > > be > > in a world of hurt here ...) > > > As I understand it, /layout does nothing more than grab a copy of the > > > files for offline use - for example the WDK 8 beta comes as a .zip that > > > looks like it's been created by running /layout since there's > > > wdksetup.exe and an 'Installers' directory. If you rename the directory, > > > wdksetup.exe goes online to fetch the files. > > > Of course it doesn't help if you want to do the download using your Mac. > > > -- > > > Bruce Cran > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > -- > > > Try before you buy = See our experts in action! > > > The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers > > > is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, > > > Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! > > > http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-dev2 > > > _______________________________________________ > > > WiX-users mailing list > > > WiX-users@lists.sourceforge.net > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wix-users > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > > Try before you buy = See our experts in action! > > The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers > > is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, > > Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! > > http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-dev2 > > _______________________________________________ > > WiX-users mailing list > > WiX-users@lists.sourceforge.net > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wix-users > > > -- > > virtually, Rob Mensching - http://RobMensching.com LLC > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Try before you buy = See our experts in action! > The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is > just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro > Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! > http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-dev2 > _______________________________________________ > WiX-users mailing list > WiX-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wix-users > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Try before you buy = See our experts in action! > The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is > just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro > Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! > http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-dev2 > _______________________________________________ > WiX-users mailing list > WiX-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wix-users > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Try before you buy = See our experts in action! > The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers > is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, > Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! > http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-dev2 > _______________________________________________ > WiX-users mailing list > WiX-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wix-users > -- virtually, Rob Mensching - http://RobMensching.com LLC ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Keep Your Developer Skills Current with LearnDevNow! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-d2d _______________________________________________ WiX-users mailing list WiX-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wix-users
