Thanks for raising this Galder. We at Wiki Project Med continue to work on a solution. Most recently we have launched a version of the data visualizer that is based on 100s of images from Commons.
Way 3 mentioned here https://mdwiki.org/wiki/WikiProjectMed:OWID It does still have a bunch of improvement required but a bit of progress. James On Sat, Feb 1, 2025 at 6:10 PM Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga < [email protected]> wrote: > Dear all, > 22 months ago, the WMF decided, for security reasons, to dismantle the > graph system, promising a new one in a couple of weeks. 22 months later, we > are still waiting for a functional graph system that, in the last promise, > was said to be working by September 2024 (five months ago): > https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Chart/Project#FAQ. Even if this > graph system comes in the future, let's say before our second > "break-all-the-graphs-and-put-a-message-in-thousands-of-pages anniversary", > the new graph solution won't even reach what we used to have. For example: > our own data visualization software won't be able to query our own data > project, Wikidata ( > https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension_talk:Chart/Project#Data_source). > > In this time, it has been proposed to talk about this issue within the > Product and Technology Annual Plan discussion. Of course, this gave the > exact amount of zero mentions to interactivity in the annual plan. Zero > hours devoted to improve our platform interactivity. > > The community also tried to make a functional system importing the > OurWorldInData (OWID) visualizations into our platforms. The WMF devoted a > good amount of time to try to stop that effort. The WMF suggested to ask > for this to be solved in the revamped wishlist process ( > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:OWID_Gadget#This_page_gets_the_issues_at_stake_exactly_backwards), > a process that works just as well as the one we had before. In September > 2024, five months ago, we were told just to wait till an agreement was > reached between the WMF and the OWID team ( > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:OWID_Gadget#OWID_Update_September_2024). > Five lost months. > > Meanwhile, all other platforms are improving their usability, > discoverability and interactivity. > > Have a nice weekend, > > Galder > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga <[email protected]> > *Sent:* Tuesday, June 18, 2024 4:42 PM > *To:* Wikimedia Mailing List <[email protected]> > *Subject:* Re: [Wikimedia-l] Re: We need more interactive content: we are > doing it wrong > > It's interesting to see the WMF talking clearly about the issue of > interactivity. The word "interactiv*" appears exactly ZERO TIMES in the > Annual plan Objetives, Key Results and Hypotheses (just published): > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Annual_Plan/2024-2025/Product_%26_Technology_OKRs > > Could it be worse? Yes, for sure. Everything can be worse, but we need to > make an extra effort to find how. > > ------------------------------ > *From:* James Heilman <[email protected]> > *Sent:* Friday, June 7, 2024 5:28 AM > *To:* Wikimedia Mailing List <[email protected]> > *Subject:* [Wikimedia-l] Re: We need more interactive content: we are > doing it wrong > > Way 3 is only banned if staff decide external links are too dangerous. > > J > > Sent from Gmail Mobile > > > On Fri, Jun 7, 2024 at 01:54 Charles Roberson <[email protected]> > wrote: > > James, > > Way 1-3 was effectively banned by WMF today. Way 4 is still viable, but > expecting the staff to start it up for you is a pipe dream. > > - Charles > > On Thu, Jun 6, 2024 at 4:01 PM James Heilman <[email protected]> wrote: > > I have laid out 4 strategies for including OWID in mediawiki here > > https://mdwiki.org/wiki/WikiProjectMed:OWID > > We can of course do the third one immediately. Ie simply link in the > caption to the interactive graphs hosted by OWID itself. > > James > > On Thu, Jun 6, 2024 at 9:15 PM Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga < > [email protected]> wrote: > > It doesn't matter what we think. It doesn't even matter if we collectively > decide that we want to go on that direction. The WMF's Annual Plan and > every single answer points that they don't mind. > > We were doing it wrong one year ago. Now is even worse. Catastrophic, but > not serious. > ------------------------------ > *From:* James Heilman <[email protected]> > *Sent:* Thursday, June 6, 2024 9:09 PM > *To:* Wikimedia Mailing List <[email protected]> > *Subject:* [Wikimedia-l] Re: We need more interactive content: we are > doing it wrong > > Yah, not sure what Bergsma (WMF) > <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Mark_Bergsma_(WMF)> is trying to > say... No one is dismissing security or privacy. One; however, does need to > balance risk versus benefit and of course mitigate security and > privacy issues along the way. Allowing fear of security or privacy risks to > paralyse us is also not ideal. > > Kimmo for sure we could internalize everything ie run their software on > production servers, we already host their data on Commons (that was a > many year effort). Made the request 8 or so years ago to host their > software in fact, but the WMF dissolved the team / individual working on > this effort. I still think that is a reasonable way forwards. > > James > > On Thu, Jun 6, 2024 at 8:03 PM Kimmo Virtanen <[email protected]> > wrote: > > Hi, > > Just as a practical question in terms of what has been already done. As it > seems that all proposals where extension will require external connections > outside of Wikimedia production sites are no-go the feasible next step > would be to modify the OurWorldInData extension so that it would load the > graph data from Wikimedia commons. Is this already done even for a limited > number of example graphs? If not then this could be the next step and then > ask for a new security review on this approach. > > Though, even after it is solved that extension doesn't need external > connections outside wikimedia production it still would require some level > code review that OWID grapher doesn't do anything unexpected. > > Data itself in least some extend is in Commons > - https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Our_World_in_Data_datasets > > The OurWorldInData grapher > - > https://github.com/owid/owid-grapher/tree/master/packages/%40ourworldindata/grapher > > Application Security Review Request : OurWorldInData > - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T324989 > > Br, > -- Kimmo Virtanen, Zache > > On Thu, Jun 6, 2024 at 6:46 PM Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga < > [email protected]> wrote: > > Has this discussion impacted somehow on the WMF's approach to the future. > > Well, today we had the answer: > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:OWID_Gadget#c-Mark_Bergsma_(WMF)-20240606152100-Sj-20240428061700 > > (TL;DR: no) > > Galder > ------------------------------ > *From:* Daniel Mui <[email protected]> > *Sent:* Tuesday, March 26, 2024 9:40 PM > *To:* Wikimedia Mailing List <[email protected]> > *Subject:* [Wikimedia-l] Re: We need more interactive content: we are > doing it wrong > > I would agree that no mention in the OKR would be quite disturbing... > However the 2024 report is NOT out yet, these are draft issues and I would > not make judgement until the full report is ready, which i believe to be > april. > > > ------------------------------ > Dear All, > > I understand the frustration around the lack of progress on interactive > content and the discontinuation of the Graph extension. However, I'd like > to point out a few things. > > First, the response from staff members reaching out to editors for their > opinions was remarkably quick. This type of response is not common, and > Wikipedia is unique in its hands-on approach to issues like this, it is > something to be proud of and also something that takes time. > > Second, the Graph tool is being overhauled rather than patched. This is a > significant undertaking that will bring all our tools into the modern age, > making them more accessible and removing the underlying vulnerabilities > that led to the current situation in the first place, it will also ensure > the tool is up-to-date in terms of UX through things like codex and other > modern improvements that long term will allow more users to create graphs > which hopefully will keep it a priority to maintain, again thinking long > term here. > > I know that this is taking time, but I believe that developing a robust > and sustainable solution is the best approach. Doing it this way rather > than delaying it for another six months is something I'd rather have and > I'd like to thank the hard working wikimedia team for that. > > Thanks, > Daniel > > On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 8:03 PM Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga < > [email protected]> wrote: > > Dear all, > Soon it will be a year since the Graph extension is disabled in all wikis. > Meanwhile, we have been discussing about interactive content here and > there, and there have been some promises about changes in the platform so > these changes are possible in the future. > > Today the draft of the Key Results for the 2024-2025 annual plan was > published and there's no single mention to this, nor to improving the > multimedia experience. The disconnection between the needs and the plans is > so evident, that I don't really know why we even bother discussing. You can > see the Key Results here: > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Annual_Plan/2024-2025/Product_%26_Technology_OKRs > <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Annual_Plan/2024-2025/Product_%26_Technology_OKRs> > . > > This is extremely disappointing. > > Best, > Galder > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Samuel Klein <[email protected]> > *Sent:* Saturday, March 23, 2024 3:37 PM > *To:* Wikimedia Mailing List <[email protected]> > *Subject:* [Wikimedia-l] Re: We need more interactive content: we are > doing it wrong > > Beautiful. Thank you Felipe!! > > 🌍🌏🌎🌑 > > On Sat, Mar 23, 2024, 5:54 AM Felipe Schenone <[email protected]> wrote: > > Hi Galder, I just did this fix > <https://eu.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Gadgets-definition&diff=prev&oldid=9637458> > and > your Vivarium seems to be working now. The documentation was ok, but a bit > confusing, so I improved it too. Soon I'll send a patch to make those > "special categories" unnecessary. In the meantime, they're a necessary > annoyance, I'm afraid. Cheers! > > On Sat, Mar 23, 2024 at 5:37 AM Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga < > [email protected]> wrote: > > Thanks Felipe, that's a really great move. I looked to these examples a > couple o years ago, and this seems that a good option to add some > interactive content. Anyway, I have tried to replicate it and can't make it > work (https://eu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Txantiloi:Vivarium). Is the > documentation right? > > Best > > Galder > ------------------------------ > *From:* Felipe Schenone <[email protected]> > *Sent:* Friday, March 22, 2024 10:39 PM > *To:* Wikimedia Mailing List <[email protected]> > *Subject:* [Wikimedia-l] Re: We need more interactive content: we are > doing it wrong > > Hi everyone, good news! > > Thanks to this humble change > <https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/c/mediawiki/extensions/Gadgets/+/1005092> > (deployed > today) it is now possible to load a specific gadget when a specific > template is used in a page. This opens the door (or perhaps a window?) to > interactive content using JavaScript. See for example this article in the > Spanish Wikipedia <https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juego_de_la_vida> for an > interactive instance of Conway's Game of Life, and scroll down for more > instances! > > I started documenting the system at MediaWiki.org, under the title template > gadgets <https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Template_gadgets>, and included > many working examples. Check it out! > > Perhaps the system isn't as friendly or powerful a solution as some might > hope. But it's very real, and it only depends on us now. Next week, when > the documentation and examples are a bit more cooked, I'll propose adding a > few "template gadgets" to the English Wikipedia, since my experience has > taught me that when something hits the English Wikipedia, it quickly > spreads elsewhere. I'll link to the proposal when I do, in case you want to > participate. > > There's so much more that could be said about this, but I'd rather keep it > short. If you have questions or ideas, feel free to write them here or at the > relevant talk page <https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Template_gadgets>. > > Kind regards, > Felipe (User:Sophivorus) > > On Thu, Feb 8, 2024 at 5:31 AM danboy12342 Mui <[email protected]> > wrote: > > Hi everyone, > > I agree that Wikipedia needs to spend a few quarters spending time on our > main product. The website is very impressively still the top result of a > huge number of searches and in this new AI age; despite the controversy > around it, wikipedia is the top source for many LLMs. Therefore while it > doesn't need to be the only focus or even *the* focus most of the time it > does need to be kept working but not just kept as is, it needs to be > innovative and continue to meet the growing demands of a "modern" and > "useable" site that allow users to get the information they need as fast > and effectively as possible, these days that means interactivity. > > I feel I'm repeating others but a quick burst of very serious investment > into the site and its many sister pages needs to happen sooner rather than > later. > Finally I'd like to thank Marshall again for his remarkable comments. It's > good to see that this issue is clearly a priority that foundation staff are > already looking at. > > - Daniel. > > --------------------- > > > > On Wed, Feb 7, 2024, 09:17 Gnangarra <[email protected]> wrote: > > Hi > > I just like to highlight one point, that raises concerns; > > > perhaps enabling other platforms/apps to use our content to make > interactive or video materials there. > > > While this sounds like an easy solution we run into a number of hidden > costs. These are significant when we push for reusers to present what we > are doing in better ways we lose the movement's revenue stream as less > people see our donation banners. With less direct traffic we also > sacrifice the ability to convert readers into contributors which has always > been our primary source of community sustainability and growth. I know > other providers will find different ways to present our efforts in part or > in whole that is part of our purpose, to do our mission and achieve our > goals we need prioritise internal solutions. > > This also leads us to a related issue that our mission is to make the sum > of all knowledge freely available. When we look to outside parties to share > our efforts we lose our ability to ensure that the information is neutral, > and that it's freely accessible. Butch is right in noting that when we put > funding into third party sites it is taking resources away from the > movement, yet those same funds were donated to us on the basis of > maintaining and building our infrastructure. It would be a wise investment > to enable some of those much needed interactive and video content here > through purchasing rights. > > On Wed, 7 Feb 2024 at 12:20, Butch Bustria <[email protected]> wrote: > > Hi Everyone, > > My earnest hope that the Wikimedia Foundation on its 2024-2025 Annual > Financial Plan prioritize and I mean put first among all is the technical > infrastructure among all its budgetary items. We can scale down budgets to > 3rd party organizations like the Knowledge Equity Fund, Movement Strategy > Governance funding, campaign grants, and other "wants" to accomodate a > highly technically reliable and stable Wikimedia online projects ("needs"), > future proof, and user friendly experience which require investments on > quality manpower, hardware, applications and the like. We love open source > but we also be pragmatic and wise on selection of choices because we want > our content be conveniently available and reliable to our readers, users, > consumers and also editors. > > A welcome development is the MediaWiki Users and Developers Conference, > the successor to EMWCon. > > https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/MediaWiki_Users_and_Developers_Conference_2024 > > The said conference will be held in Portland, Oregon, from April 17–19, > 2024. > > I also hope the Foundation invest in more technical gatherings, both > onsite, hybrid or online to engage and reach out to more technical > contributors, within and beyond the Wikimedia movement. I also hope WMF to > start exploring eastward to Asia or elsewhere in the world as well fully > diversify the technical community. > > > > Kind regards, > > *Butch Bustria* > > > > > On Wed, Feb 7, 2024, 4:54 AM Brion Vibber <[email protected]> wrote: > > Thanks for weighing in, Marshall! > > I agree wholeheartedly that we need to do a proper architecture for a > sandbox for interactive media, that will be safe (first and foremost), > perform well in the browser, work across device types (desktop web, mobile > web, mobile apps), and maintain our key requirements on editability and > reusability, balanced against the security and privacy needs of users if > we're going to invest the effort. > > Backing up to do it right rather than patch up Graphs “one more time” is > the right thing, and I’m very happy to see a confluence of interest around > this now! > > My hope is we can figure out how to make that architecture & testing work > happen in the near term until we collectively (inside WMF and out) can > wrangle resources to make the implementation production-ready. > > Once we have a common infrastructure to build on, it’ll be easier for work > to progress on individual types of media (graphs, charts, maps, animations, > editable simulations, coding examples, etc, as well as classics like > panorama viewers and integrating the audio/video player into a sandbox for > heightened security). > > My biggest hope is that we’ll enable more work from outside WMF to happen > – letting volunteers and other orgs who might have their own specialty > areas and work funding to progress without every change being a potential > new security risk. > > When we have succeeded in the past, we have succeeded by making tools that > other people can use as their own basis to build their own works. I’m > confident we can get there on interactive media with some common focus. > > Let's all try to capture some of this momentum while we've got it and set > ourselves up for success down the road. > > – b > > > On Tue, Feb 6, 2024, 12:27 PM <[email protected]> wrote: > > Hi everyone – My name is Marshall Miller, I am a Senior Director of > Product at the Wikimedia Foundation, and I work with many of the teams that > are involved with the user experience of our websites and apps, such as the > Editing, Web, Growth, and Mobile Apps teams (among others) [1]. I’m part of > the leadership group that makes decisions about how the WMF teams approach > things like graphs, interactive content, and video. Thank you all for > having this in-depth and important discussion. > > I know that issues with graphs [2] are what started this discussion, but I > agree that it makes sense to think about this in terms of the broader > category of “interactive content”, because other kinds of interactive > content, such as maps or timelines, would share architecture with what is > needed for graphs (video is a different and more complicated content > type). I wrote a lot in this email, but here are a couple of the main > points up front: to support graphs and other interactive content, we would > need to take a step back and make a substantial investment in sustainable > architecture to do it – so that it works well, safely, and is built to > last. And because that’s a substantial investment, we need to weigh it > against other important investments in order to decide whether and when to > do it. > > I know that it is very frustrating that the Graph extension has not been > operational for many months – it means readers haven’t been seeing graphs > in articles, and editors haven’t been able to use graphs to do things like > monitor backlogs in WikiProjects. Over the months of trying to find a way > to turn graphs back on, it has become clear that there isn’t a safe > shortcut here and that the path forward will require a substantial > investment – one that we have not yet started given the other priorities > we’ve been working on. Every year we have to make difficult tradeoffs > around what areas of our technical infrastructure we can and cannot take > on. In the current fiscal year, the Product and Technology department has > made experienced editors a priority [3], and many things that volunteers > have asked for are either accomplished or in flight: > > Improvements to PageTriage (complete) [4] > Watchlist in the iOS app (complete) [5] > Patrolling in the Android app (in progress) [6] > Dark mode (in progress) [7] > Improvements to the Commons Upload Wizard (in progress) [8] > …and other projects. > > But I know this conversation isn’t as much about what editors need as what > current and future readers need. Between talking about interactive content > and talking about video, it sounds like we’re having the larger > conversation of what we should be offering today’s and tomorrow’s readers > to help them learn from encyclopedic content – whether we need to be > offering interactivity, or video, or perhaps enabling other platforms/apps > to use our content to make interactive or video materials there. This is a > really important conversation, because even working together we probably > will not be able to build all of it – we’ll have to make hard choices about > where to invest. One place where this broader conversation is happening is > called “Future Audiences”, which does experiments on how to reach newer > generations who use the internet differently than previous generations – > and thinking particularly about video. Future Audiences has regular calls > with community members to shape the direction of those experiments, which > in turn inform how the broader Foundation prioritizes. I hope many of you > will get involved in those conversations – you can sign up here. [9] > > Focusing back on graphs, since that’s what kicked this thread off, the > several approaches we’ve attempted for quickly re-enabling the extension > have ended up having security or performance problems. Therefore, we think > that if we were to support graphs and other interactive content, we would > need to plan substantial investment in sustainable architecture. This way, > our approach would work securely and stably for the longer term. But that > would take significant resources, and we’ll need to weigh it against many > other important priorities, like tools for functionaries, improvements to > the editing experience, automated ways to stop vandals, etc. > > To be clear, if we do assign resources to the planning and building of an > architecture for graphs (and other interactive content), it means that we > are still at least several more months away from having a working > Foundation-supported architecture. Therefore, I think we should also be > having the additional conversation that many others have brought up about > what volunteers can do in these intervening months to make graphs somewhat > available to users. I know people are talking about that concretely on the > Phabricator task, and I will join that conversation as well. > For the bigger question, I would like to start with some more learning > about which kinds of interactive content are important for our > encyclopedia, and how our community members see the evolution of the > reading experience on our projects. I’d like to have some small > conversations with many of you so that we can get into the details and > ideas, joined by some of my colleagues. I’ll start reaching out to see who > is interested in talking – and please let me know directly if you’d like to > talk. > > Thank you for weighing in so far, and let’s keep talking and planning > together. > > Marshall > > [1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:MMiller_(WMF) > [2] https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T334940 > [3] > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Annual_Plan/2023-2024#Our_approach_for_the_future > [4] > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Page_Curation/2023_Moderator_Tools_project#October_20,_2023:_Final_update > ! > [5] > https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Apps/Team/iOS/Watchlist#October_2023 > [6] > https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Apps/Team/Android/Anti_Vandalism > [7] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Reading/Web/Accessibility_for_reading > [8] > https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:WMF_support_for_Commons/Upload_Wizard_Improvements > [9] > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Future_Audiences#Sign_up_to_participate! > 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